Ep. 148 Transcript

Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.

Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson and this is Enhance Life with Music, a holistic look at the power of music in our everyday lives. My guest today is Dr. Annie Heiderscheit, director of music therapy and associate professor at Augsburg University right here in Minneapolis. Annie has been a board certified music therapist for 32 years and is also licensed as a marriage and family therapist. She has authored over 70 peer reviewed articles, 40 book chapters and three books based on her clinical work and research and expert on music therapy within the context of eating disorders. And she has authored a book titled Creative Arts Therapies and Clients with Eating Disorders. I learned about Annie’s work through a listener – shout-out to Karen Vaccaro! Thank you, Karen; and welcome to Enhance Life With Music, Annie.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:00:55] Thank you so much. It’s great to be here.

Mindy Peterson: [00:00:58] Well, starting out, Annie, before we jumped into this conversation about applying music’s healing powers to the challenge of eating disorders, tell us just for context, very briefly and simply for purposes of our conversation, what do you consider an eating disorder? How do how do you define it?

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:01:15] Yeah, so eating disorders have very specific criteria and there are different types of eating disorders. And so they are included in what is called the DSM five, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. And so they fall under that umbrella and there are different types of eating disorders. And so each of those has specific criteria. But what is at the kind of I will call it the foundation of any eating disorder is a really complex not only relationship with food, but also with one’s own body. Each eating disorder has its specific criteria, which is related to unique symptoms of of each disorder. So whether that’s restricting food or bingeing, all of all of that has there’s kind of specific criteria for anybody to be diagnosed with with any one of those eating disorders. But sometimes we see people with what we might call disordered eating, and that’s where they might be restricting certain types of foods. Again, that would be outside of the limits of somebody who would have a food allergy. If we’re allergic to something, we’re not going to eat that food. Sure. But if we’ve if we’re restricting it for other other reasons or we’re restricting certain food groups, then we start to develop what we call kind of a disordered eating patterns or disordered relationship with eating. And then if that is prolonged and extended and becomes more persistent, it can develop into what we would call an eating disorder. But in order to be kind of classified as as whether it’s anorexia, binge eating disorder, it has to meet that specific criteria within the DSM five.

Mindy Peterson: [00:03:03] Okay. And for those of us laypeople, we tend to think of anorexia, bulimia and yep, bulimia. You mentioned binge eating. And then it sounds like there may be sort of this additional category that I don’t know if catchall is the right word, but disordered eating that doesn’t maybe fit one of those other categories.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:03:22] Yes, it would be kind of a it could be a precursor to developing an eating disorder.

Mindy Peterson: [00:03:27] Okay. And what are we seeing with the incidences of eating disorders over the last, say, 50 ish years, or are we seeing those increase or are they increasing dramatically? Are there certain demographics that are more affected than others?

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:03:42] Yeah, we’re seeing increases and we’re actually seeing increases around the world. So not just in the United States, but all around the world. And some of that, you know, there’s a lot of thoughts around like why are we seeing that some of that can be due to social media know we see particular images that might be revered about about body and body types. And so that can impact people developing eating disorders because people are getting more and more access to social media. And I think certainly as we are looking at the impact of the pandemic, the stress of that also impacts developing different challenges and as well as kind of related to eating disorders, too. And what we’re also seeing is people developing eating disorders at a younger age as well as at an older age. So seeing increases in eating disorders in individuals in elementary school, moving into middle school, as well as people in their fifties and sixties.

Mindy Peterson: [00:04:49] Oh, interesting. Yeah, I definitely tend to think of adolescence when I hear the term eating disorder, but that’s interesting that you’re seeing more on either end of that.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:04:59] Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And you know, the areas I think, where we might not necessarily expect that. And so and it’s I, I hear from people frequently they think of of eating disorders as an adolescent disorder. You know, we see people in treatment, you know, through a much broader life span than I think most people might recognize as well.

Mindy Peterson: [00:05:22] Yeah, Well, and I am realizing that I tend to think of eating disorders as a female issue and a female challenge. But that’s not necessarily the case, is it?

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:05:32] Right. And so while we see a higher incidence with females than males, you know, it’s I think the challenges and there’s a couple of challenges with that. I think I think because of that kind of bias that we may hold, I think that bias can hold true within health care as well, that we might not see it in males as much because we don’t we don’t expect to see it there as well as males may not be seeking out treatment because they may not feel like treatment is designed for them. We’re also we also see see struggles with athletes, whether it’s gymnasts, dancers, wrestlers, having to or being expected to kind of lose weight in order to be able to compete more competitively in their sport, that that fosters developing a rather complicated relationship with food and weight.

Mindy Peterson: [00:06:28] Sure. Yeah. I’ve heard there’s a podcaster who I listen to who’s a former bodybuilder, and I have a friend who is a former bodybuilder, and I’ve heard both of them talk about how they one reason they eventually got out of it was just because they felt like it was such an unhealthy situation in terms of the relationship with eating and their relationship with their body. And so certainly that’s not the case with all bodybuilders, but it does seem to sort of be inherent with that.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:06:58] Absolutely. Yeah. There’s I will say there’s there can be that risk. And I think it’s you know, it’s important. It’s this is certainly not throwing any athletics under the bus. But I think to recognize what are the messages. And even with dance there can be messages about certain body types about weight. We need to ensure that we are working to hold positive and build positive relationships with our body. We don’t all have the same body type. And so when we look at images in media, whether that’s magazines, online, on TV, in the movies, we don’t all have the same body type. And so it’s it’s healthier for us as human beings if we see different body types represented in all of these forms of media.

Mindy Peterson: [00:07:51] Sure. You have used the word already in our conversation today. Complex. And that was one thing I remember you mentioned last time I talked to you that you’re sort of drawn to complex situations and eating disorders are complex because they involve both a physical and mental component, kind of a physiological and psychological layer. Talk to us a little bit more about the complexity that’s involved in facing the challenge of an eating disorder.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:08:20] Yeah. So, you know, I think the challenge is and and yeah, someone who likes complexity, you know, one of those challenges is then, you know, working to meet someone’s needs holistically when they’re dealing with something very complex like an eating disorder. So, for example, not only with any with any eating disorder, there may be other mental health or other issues underlying it. So there might be trauma, there might be depression, there might be anxiety, there might be some OCD, there might be an addiction. So oftentimes there can be other issues in addition to the eating disorder. And so, you know, while we can’t just separate things out because we are kind of one being in one body, we need to kind of deal with all of those pieces. But eating disorders have their own kind of mental health component that we often talk about the eating disorder as its own entity, the negative thoughts that are kind of running through one’s thoughts and mind and that can be rather persistent and rather difficult. You know, we talk about those as kind of eating disorder thoughts to try to work to separate those out from the person. So we’re dealing with that, but we’re also dealing with that relationship with food, that relationship with one’s own body, how one sees oneself, as well as the impact of the eating disorder on one’s own body, one’s physical well being.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:09:48] So it could be that someone has developed a number of physical health issues because of the eating disorder, for example, with anorexia, if someone is. Restricting if they’re restricting severely enough. We can begin to see their bone density is compromised so that they’re losing they’re losing the strength within their bones. Over time, we can see loss, hair loss, we can see loss of muscle tone. We can see if there’s enough nutrition restriction that actually we see the brain kind of shrinking because the brain isn’t getting enough nutrition to be supported. So there can be cardiac issues, there can be digestive issues, endocrine. Logical issues. There are so many issues that can occur because the body is not being nourished well enough to support its own self. And so if there’s not enough nutrition, the body is looking to see what can it do to survive? What do I need? You know, it needs to keep the heart beating to survive. And so it starts to look at what what parts of the body do I need to turn off or shut down to survive? So one’s nails might stop growing, the hair might stop growing and the hair might start to fall out. So the body is really moving into a self preservation mode. To keep you alive.

Mindy Peterson: [00:11:11] Sure. Just really focusing on those vital organs.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:11:14] Exactly.

Mindy Peterson: [00:11:16] Well. Well, my favorite question to ask and then to listen to your response is next. Why is music therapy especially effective in treating and healing eating disorders? And as part of that answer, as you’re talking to us about that, you can also would love to hear some specific examples of how you do use music in this healing process.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:11:41] Yeah, well, I’m I’m horribly biased when it comes to this. And I have always loved the work that I’ve been able to do, working with individuals and their families as they’re working to move into recovery from their eating disorder and to heal from that. But I will say music is complex. So there’s this there’s this kind of shared complexity in music and and with eating disorders and music is accessible. And so that’s part of what I love about that work. But because eating disorders are really complex, I can use music and music therapy in many different ways to meet lots of different needs of clients. And as a music therapist, I’m using music in all the different ways in which we can engage with music. So listening to music and that might mean we’re using music to manage stress and anxiety. So learning how to cope so that we’re not using the symptoms of the eating disorder, we’re not using the restricting and the purging or the overexercising helping patients develop new ways of coping.

Mindy Peterson: [00:12:49] And that’s really because that eating disorder is in itself a coping mechanism.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:12:54] Yes, those symptoms are a way of managing and coping. And so we can’t just simply say, stop doing that, right. We need new ways of coping. And so music is one of the ways that we can use as a means of coping. I used to do a regular group called The Art of Relaxation, where every week we did a different type of music based relaxation. So whether that was listening to music to kind of slow down the rhythms of the body, to foster a relaxation response. Because when we get stressed and anxious, all the rhythms of the body speed up or using music and doing some guided imagery or doing some active music, making playing, playing music as a means of fostering, distracting us from stressful thoughts, as well as playing music that’s slow enough to slow down the rhythms of the body. So lots of ways that we can can even use music, listening or working with clients to develop a playlist that they can take home with them and use whenever they need to, to listen to music that might empower and uplift them and support developing positive messages about self as they work to kind of counteract some of those negative eating disorder thoughts.

Mindy Peterson: [00:14:20] Ha You mentioned the word distraction and that reminded me there is a quote on your website or website that was an article about you or something that quoted a participant in the sessions as saying, Well, we were playing together in creating music. My eating disorder was not present. How great it feels to have time away from it. So that was something that really caught my attention. I could see how that distraction would be really helpful using music in that way.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:14:51] Absolutely right. And music holds us in the moment when we’re making music or listening to music. It can. Hold us in that moment, kind of in that here and now. And so it can pull us away from those things that, you know, if there’s really negative thoughts, it can kind of hold us in that moment and. Right. Give them a break from their eating disorder. And the moment, the more time they can have to kind of step away from that, then they can experience how different that feels, how it feels to not have all those negative thoughts pushing in every moment of every day. But when I can get a break from that. How how much different I feel about myself, how much better I feel, which is a huge part of that.

Mindy Peterson: [00:15:36] Well, you mentioned several examples of how you do use music. You also use music in songwriting.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:15:44] Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So writing about writing about one’s own experiences is, I will say, a really empowering process. Most, most every client I’ve ever worked with throughout my career, no one’s ever actually, they don’t come into music therapy going, Oh, I’ve written songs before. Most clients come and go, I’ve never written a song before, but that doesn’t mean we can’t do it in music therapy, because that’s part of my role as the music therapist is to make this accessible. And so I had a group one day that had heard a song. The song was about a woman who was involved in an abusive relationship and was married to someone who was abusing her. And one of the clients came into group that day and said, We should write a song about the eating disorder is is like being in an abusive relationship. And we should write a song that is about saying goodbye to the eating disorder. Goodbye. Good by eating disorder. So the group worked together, wrote this song. The song was really about their process of developing the eating disorder, struggling with the eating disorder, and then coming into treatment, what they learned about themselves is in order to begin to recover and and really then about saying goodbye to the eating disorder, having to say goodbye to it, having to move away from that, the group ended up recording their song. They they chose to record their song. And then I made a copy for each of them and gave them a copy of their song.

Mindy Peterson: [00:17:22] So back in the day of CD’s.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:17:27] They got a CD of their song, and then a couple of years ago I was actually driving to work, driving to Augsburg. I happened to stop at a Starbucks that I don’t normally stop at and I walked in and I went up to the counter to put my order in and I haven’t I hadn’t even I was just kind of stepping up. And the person said, Are you Annie? And I thought, They can’t know how they know me here. This isn’t even a Starbucks I normally stop at. And then and I said, Yes. And and then she said, Are you Annie, the music therapist? And I said, Yes, that’s quite specific. And and she said, Do you remember the song Goodbye, Ed? And I said, Absolutely, I remember. Oh, And she said, Well, I was in the group that wrote that song. And she said, I just want you to know I still have my recording of that song. And this was several years ago.

Mindy Peterson: [00:18:27] That, yeah, I was going to ask like how many years had passed between the time of writing? Seven, probably.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:18:32] Seven. Wow. And and she said, I just wanted you to know how important music therapy was to my treatment and my recovery. And I still listen to that song. And then she said, And I want you to know how well I’m doing in my recovery.

Mindy Peterson: [00:18:46] Oh, my goodness. That just gives me goose bumps.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:18:49] Yeah. And I will say, I got my coffee. I told her I’m so pleased that she’s doing so well. And then I got in my car and I cried the rest of the way to work. I was so moved by that experience and I mean, I love the work that I do, but I was really taken aback by how impactful it was for her that she was still remembering that all of these years later. Yeah.

Mindy Peterson: [00:19:21] And still using that for her sense for her wellbeing and her health.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:19:26] Exactly.

Mindy Peterson: [00:19:27] Wow. I mean, what a powerful story and what a powerful testimony to the effectiveness of what you’re doing. And I can see how that would be so touching. And one of those moments that like, wow, that just makes every other stinky moment worth it. To hear one of those stories and testimonies from someone that you’ve worked with.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:19:47] Absolutely. And I think, you know, I think to not underestimate the power of music. You know, music is such a powerful tool and that that’s what continues to amaze me is that was just a moment that I went. We just can’t underestimate the power of music as this tool.

Mindy Peterson: [00:20:09] Mm hmm. You mentioned a couple of times how music is accessible. And as I was preparing for our conversation, I saw something that sort of caught my attention. It was pointing out how with music therapy, the music is, I should say, the therapist is not focusing on the technical quality of the art, whether it’s music or a different art, but it’s the focus is really on that therapeutic process. And as someone who’s been a piano teacher for 30 years, I thought, Oh, that’s really an important distinction. And differentiation to make is this isn’t about being technically correct and becoming more and more advanced and what you’re able to do musically. This is about almost using music as like a portal to give access for both the patient and the therapist into maybe feelings or perceptions or perspectives that even the patient might not have even identified in themselves or be aware of in that.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:21:09] Absolutely. Yeah. So, so our our goals are not to make someone more musical or make some, you know, to develop necessarily to develop their musicianship. A lot of clients that we work with don’t have a musical background. They may like music, they may listen to music, but they maybe have never learned to play an instrument. And with that said, I will also say that I’ve had clients who have said I stopped playing my instrument because the eating disorder took over my life and I want to reclaim that. I want to reclaim that part of myself because that was an important part. But but the eating disorder just kind of consumed my life and took that away. But clients do not have to have a music background to be to benefit from music therapy and were using music as this resource and tool. So it may be to we may use a song. I’ve sometimes asked clients to bring in a song that describes what it’s like to live with an eating disorder. And I had one client bring in it was a Tracy Chapman song called Remember the Tin Man. It’s a really it’s a very cyclical song. And so there’s this cyclical repetitiveness of it, which listening to it, I could just feel kind of their stubbornness and they’re eating disorder because you hear this kind of rhythmic, melodic pattern repeated again and again and again.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:22:36] And so it’s this sense of not being able to move from that place. But then how, you know, in the song she talks about kind of having things stolen from you and, you know, and as she talked about, we listen to her song in the group and then she talked about it and she said the eating disorder just steals the essence of who you are. And she said, My family doesn’t understand that this isn’t just a choice I make, that this is actually a disorder, and it’s not a choice that I’m making. And that was a really difficult part. And so after we had listened to this song and group and she’d processed it, I’d asked her afterwards, Have you thought about sharing this song with your family? And they took it into their next family therapy session to be able to kind of share what it was like, their perspective on living with this eating disorder and trying to help their family understand their experience and living with this eating disorder. Wow. So it can serve as a means of expressing our experiences, but also communicating our experiences and and having the song do. This kind of allowed her family to hear it in a new and different way, which was really.

Mindy Peterson: [00:23:52] Helpful for her. Mm hmm. I’ve heard of veterans sharing their stories through music in ways that they couldn’t just talk to their family members about what their experiences in war had been. There’s a lot of corollaries there to what you’re describing. You had mentioned that eating disorders are complex, music is complex. And I can hear that just in the various ways that you’re talking about utilizing music and how it can touch on the emotions, that can touch on the ability to communicate and express yourself. It can touch on physical elements like calming down, slowing a heart rate and also physical. I mean, music can be very healing just in and of itself, especially when you’re making music with other people. There’s so many healing elements that are part of that and it’s music is versatile. You mentioned it’s accessible. It can also be very non-threatening, especially when as we mentioned. This isn’t about how talented of a musician you are. This is just about utilizing music and having fun with it and having it be productive in the process.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:25:04] Absolutely. As as one. There’s another moment, therapeutic moment that came to mind for me. And we we engage clients in making music not only through composition but improvising. And I was doing group one day and we were doing some improvisation. And I this this to me is an illustration of some of that complexity and the group we were improvising. What is the voice of the eating disorder and kind of just playing that in the moment? And that music was really heavy and dissonant and really overpowering. And then we played what is the voice of recovery? What is that voice? And it was very harmonic and it was very consonant, and it was very much more calming, but still having a sense of energy. And when we talked about each of those, their opposing sounds right, the eating disorder voice was just very powerful and was difficult to even tolerate in our improvisation, where we just wanted to kind of linger in that sound of that recovery voice because it was calming and peaceful and so much more consonant and the process. And as we talked about that, we began to talk about how do you how do you work to quell that eating disorder voice? And we talked you know, the group talked about those challenges, but rather than just talking about it, we took I took the group and we split the group into two where part of the group came back and started to play the voice of the eating disorder, that the eating disorder voice, which was very heavy and very powerful.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:26:50] And then part of the group was the recovery voice. And so we’re playing these two different voices, which are what clients are experiencing in their recovery, right? They’re trying to find and claim and hold on to their recovery. Voice on the eating disorder voice is kind of still working to to tear that down. What we could do musically is what they really experience internally. It was an interesting process because the initial part of playing both of those simultaneously, the recovery voice really struggled to hold on and it got overpowered. And so we we kind of we paused that we stopped it. And we and then we talked about that and we talked about what is the recovery voice need, what is needed within that voice to combat that eating disorder voice. And we came back to it again and they practiced it. It’s it’s this process. What they’re practicing it in the music is what they’re living in life. I always tell my students what happens in the music happens in life.

Mindy Peterson: [00:27:56] Well, in another reason, it can be so powerful, I’m sure, to share that with family members so that they do have a little bit more of an understanding of what this person is experiencing.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:28:07] Yeah, and what they experienced in the music is, you know, what what they needed to do was to make sure that they were listening to each other, working together, to hold on to that recovery voice in order to combat the eating disorder voice. And so that was a reminder to them of I can’t do this alone.

Mindy Peterson: [00:28:27] Yeah.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:28:28] I can’t just go this process alone. I need to reach out. I need to lean into my support and not try to just combat this all on my own. I need other people to make my recovery happen. And so they get to take this experience of practicing this in the music, and they have a deeper understanding because they’ve lived in the music, to then carry that out into their life outside of treatment.

Mindy Peterson: [00:28:55] Hmm. Well, and for your clients, not only are you a board certified music therapist, you are also a licensed marriage and family therapist, which is a pretty powerful combination. How common is that and what led you to become a licensed therapist in addition to a music therapist?

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:29:13] Yeah, it’s it’s not terribly common. But I will say what led me to this is that as music therapists were board certified, which is a national certification, but that national certification doesn’t give us automatic access to billing insurance companies for services. So that means people are limited to how they can access music therapy services. So initially when I started working with clients with eating disorders within an organization, they had to find grant funding to cover, have a music therapist in there to cover my time and my services once I became licensed as a marriage. And. Family therapist, then my services could be billed to insurance companies. And so that created access or services not only for clients, for their for their families. And I will say music is a powerful tool. Music therapy is a powerful tool with families as well.

Mindy Peterson: [00:30:14] Yeah, I can imagine. Well, we will include links in the show notes to a list of the books you’ve edited and coauthored your articles on ResearchGate and Augsburg links for the music therapy website and their music department website. Are there any other resources that you want to recommend to listeners who might want to learn more about applying music’s healing power to the challenge of eating disorders, whether it’s for themself or for a loved one?

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:30:43] Yeah, you know, the interesting thing is there’s there’s really limited things out there with regards to music therapy, with clients, with eating disorders. So probably one of your best resources is to find a music therapist who who can support that process. But you can also look at I find there’s great resources and how to use music to manage stress and anxiety. And so looking at some of those wider, wider resources, that’s still all has application to eating disorders because the more stressed we are, the more vulnerable we are. So using music in those ways to manage stress and anxiety are important resources to be able to use to.

Mindy Peterson: [00:31:26] And if someone wanted to search for a music therapist in their area, do you recommend going to the American? While for those of us in the US, the American Music Therapy Association or.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:31:37] Absolutely. Yep, you can. You can search for a music therapist on the American Music Therapy Association website. You can also do a search on the certification board for Music Therapist website. And you can. Yep, you can plug in some information and find someone in your area. And that’s a great way to find someone. A lot of state associations. For example, in Minnesota, we have a music therapy association in Minnesota can can help connect you to. So if you search your State and Music Therapy Estate Association, you will often find a state association that can help connect you as well.

Mindy Peterson: [00:32:12] Wonderful. Well, this has been so delightful, Annie. I love what you’re doing. And I was thrilled when I found out what you were doing, because as you just mentioned, there doesn’t seem to be a lot out there on music’s application in this area. And so it’s it’s thrilling to hear what you are doing in that area. I ask all my guests to close out our conversation with a musical ending a coda by sharing a song or story about a moment that music enhanced your life. Is there a song or a story that you can share with us today in closing?

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:32:44] Oh, gosh, You know, there are so many so many great moments that sure come to mind. For me, music is is such a powerful tool, and I’m incredibly grateful that I get to use this tool and resource to foster healing in my work as a music therapist, but in my own life as well, because music helps us to express some of our deepest experiences and feelings. It connects us to other people. It connects us as a community, and it really holds this unique capacity all around the world. And I want to mention a resource that has that is fairly new, which is put out by the United Nations, which is it’s called a music as a global resource and it’s a free resource people can access. If you Google that, you can download this. So music is a global resource solutions for social and economic issues. It’s a wonderful resource for people to access as we look at having music at our fingertips. And I will say one of the one of the ways in which I well, I use music in my own life in many ways. I’m a vocalist and so I sing so regularly because that’s good for my health as I sing with other people. It there’s so many positive health benefits that come with that. But I love how music connects us as people. And when each of my children were born, my husband and I selected a song that we call their birth song. And that song is a song that we listen to each year on their birthday and that song. And we selected that song once, once we met each of them when they were born, selected that song just uniquely for for each of them. And so I love how song songs hold connections for us, and they hold connections for us, whether we recognize it or not. So any time I hear each of those songs, it connects me to each of them. I have a song that that my husband and I danced to at our wedding. When I hear that song, it takes me back to that moment.

Mindy Peterson: [00:34:51] It’s like that olfactory sense is. Smell or it can just take you back just in an instant.

Annie Heiderscheit: [00:34:58] Absolutely. So we all have these songs. We have what I kind of like to call our our musical or song autobiography, songs that represent people, moments, experiences in our life. If you aren’t aware of them. You know, I think it’s great to take a moment to become aware of. What are those songs that remind you of people, places, maybe concerts you’ve been to, and you share that moment with someone. It’s great. You’ve probably had those moments where you’ve been in your car and a song comes on and it reminds you. It’s like time travel back to a moment and those are incredibly valuable artifacts for us to kind of hold on to as we have these songs that connect us to moments, to memories, to people, to events. So I would encourage people to find those as you kind of collect them in your life. And they will continue to be a resource and a way for you to access those moments and memories throughout your life.

Transcribed by Sonix.ai