Ep. 166 Transcript

Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.

Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson, and this is Enhance Life with Music, where we explore the ways music makes our lives better. I have two guests joining me today from Portland, Oregon. Dr. Dennis Plies is a professional, classical and jazz musician and teacher. He was a musical prodigy from early childhood and was a professor of music at Warner Pacific University for over 35 years. Dr. Larry Sherman is a professor of neuroscience at the Oregon Health and Science University. He’s been a pianist since age four and has published widely on brain development, aging and disease, and has given lectures on music and the brain throughout the world. Together, these two wrote a book published earlier this year called Every Brain Needs Music: The Neuroscience of Making and Listening to Music. Welcome to Enhance Life with Music, Dennis and Larry.

Dennis Plies: [00:00:56] Thank you.

Larry Sherman: [00:00:57] Yes, thank you. Thank you so much.

Mindy Peterson: [00:00:59] You cover so much ground in your book. I love the book. As I told you before, we hit record. Love the book. I highly recommend it. You cover some heavy topics involving neuroscience and pedagogical techniques, and somehow you manage to do it in an engaging way and with humor. You say in your book that you hope to offer readers unique insights into music, the art of teaching, learning and creativity. And you also say you hope that this book shows why you should never be afraid to have meaningful conversations with someone when you’re standing naked in a locker room at 6:00 in the morning. So tell us the story about how you two met and how this book came to be.

Larry Sherman: [00:01:41] Well, I mean, you you just summarized it pretty well.

Mindy Peterson: [00:01:46] So listeners might need a little bit of explanation on that one. Yeah.

Larry Sherman: [00:01:51] Well, so it’s funny. Dennis and I work out at the same gym. We are both early morning people and he does weightlifting and other things, and I play racquetball with some racquetball partners. And one more. I hadn’t really spoken to Dennis before this one particular morning and I’d seen him around. He probably had seen me around. But one morning I was talking to my racquetball partner and it happened to be the morning after I had just given one of my music in the brain talks in town, and he was asking me how it went and I was talking about it. And Dennis chimed in and said, Did you did you say that you you give talks about music in the brain? And I said, Yeah, yeah. He says, Oh, you know what? I’ve been to your talks. I just didn’t recognize you without any clothes on. So that’s and that led to lots of conversations over the years about music and philosophy and history and all sorts of topics. And so that’s, that’s how we met. And Dennis, I came to learn was had been a professor, it was a professor then at Warner Pacific University here, a professor of music, and invited me to give the talk at his university. And our friendship just really took off from there, I think. Dennis I don’t know what your perception was of that, but.

Dennis Plies: [00:03:10] Well, I learned so much and wanted 300 other people to learn from your lecture on music and the brain. So yeah, it was all positive.

Mindy Peterson: [00:03:19] So that’s a little bit about how you two met. Tell us how the book came to be.

Dennis Plies: [00:03:24] So with Larry, doing these music in the brain talks regularly and all over the place, and they’re well attended, he was encouraged to the extent that he was is encouraged to make it a book. And that’s when he invited me to consider that. And it took me over one second to decide to say yes, I was privileged and elated, and it turned out in perfect timing with retirement coming. So we’ve been in a mutual accord for these six years in total time. The book was accepted over a year ago.

Larry Sherman: [00:04:09] Yeah. So, I mean, a friend of mine who used to work with Simon and Schuster and is an editor had been pestering me to write a book about these talks that I give for for years. And I just realized that, you know, there there are so many books about the neuroscience and music out there. I just didn’t feel like I would be adding that much new. But then when I thought about it, I thought, you know, having someone be a co-author who was actually a professional musician and a professional teacher of music, a professor of music would add a whole new dimension. And then when Dennis and I started talking about it, we realized maybe we should even have another set of voices in there, which is voices from a survey that we put out to 100 people who included professional musicians and composers and music lovers and so forth. And just asking. Them these very pointed questions about what they think their brain is doing when they engage in music in various different ways. And that that turned out to be, I think, a brilliant approach. I think that was Dennis’s suggestion that we tried doing that, but the questionnaire was was really helpful. And we have an appendix in the book which summarizes all those questions and all the different answers. And I think that was that was really something that helped to drive the process. Yes.

Mindy Peterson: [00:05:26] Wonderful. Well, as I mentioned, there’s a lot of content in the book, but you do a great job of making it accessible and engaging for those of us who are not neuroscientists. And I’m a musician, but I would I felt that the the music teacher content was also very accessible for people who weren’t necessarily professional musicians. Tell us a little bit about who the book is for, because I think it’s a pretty broad audience of who can really glean a lot from the book.

Larry Sherman: [00:05:54] Well, I think that’s something that also evolved as we were writing it, because the talks I gave were generally to audiences of people who were not necessarily scientists, but people who had a lot of curiosity about science and then also who happened to just also be interested in music. And then I think as we were writing this, Dennis and I realized that this could really be for a broad audience, but really, especially people who love music and want to engage in music and want to understand what’s happening when they engage in music, but also how that information might help them be better, about how they engage in music, be it composing, be it practicing, be it performing, or even just listening. And so I think we really thought this was going to be a great book for a broad, broad audience. And then on top of that, we realized that as the content was was coming together, it would probably be a great introductory textbook as well for for classes, for example, for music therapy folks. And so that I think there’s a lot of different ways you can use the book.

Mindy Peterson: [00:06:58] Yeah. I mean, for anyone who loves music, anyone who wants to understand a little bit more about how it is we make music, how to teach, how to learn, how to perform, how to listen. And I think you point out in the book, too, that a lot of the principles and concepts that are presented really can apply in general to the how we teach process or how we learn in general, and also just understanding that underlying nature of creativity, which is pretty cool. The book is I Love This, divided into eight movements. So usually with guests, I have a list of questions that I want to ask them. With your book, I just love the content of it so much and loved how it was organized into these eight movements. I just was hoping that we could go through and have you just sort of give listeners a little bit of a taste and an explanation of what is covered in these eight movements. So starting with the first one, the first one is what is music and why does it exist? And I love one of the questions, maybe the question that you opened this section with where you say, if an extraterrestrial alien landed in your backyard and asked you to describe music using words, what would you say? And I was like, Oh my goodness, that would be a tough one to answer. But tell us just a little bit about this movement and what is addressed in this movement in the book.

Larry Sherman: [00:08:22] Yeah, So this movement is really trying to let people understand some basic things as a premise for the rest of the book, really. You know, why do we why do why do humans have music? How do they use it? It’s sort of also introduces the basic concepts of how music really can be thought of as changes in air molecules, along with other sounds, obviously, but very special properties in these air molecules floating through space and entering our ears and turning on very specific sets of nerve cells. These neurons that let the rest of the brain know that music is coming. And that is kind of to whet the appetite of the reader, I think, to let them know that, you know, the brain really does engage in music in very special ways. And then beyond that, we we really get into these bigger philosophical questions about how music has evolved with humanity. The notion that it gave us some sort of advantage that led to its existence and continued existence, and the idea that music could be something that brings communities together, that really strengthens social bonding, but also how it could be used in various different ways. And one of the ways we mentioned is, is it was used in the Underground Railroad, for example, as a way to give instructions to people who were trying to escape slavery. And so I think it really sets the stage for why we why music exists and why we as humans engage in it so much.

Mindy Peterson: [00:09:46] Well, you mentioned when you mentioned the possibility of using this as sort of a foundational textbook for people going into music programs, whether it’s music therapy or something else. I could see this chapter being really helpful for that too, because. You talk about the the four major lobes of the brain and how music can be involved in strengthening synapses and overlapping brain circuits and things like that. And I would think that that would be hugely helpful for people who are going into music therapy and also other music related programs, too. Yeah.

Larry Sherman: [00:10:16] And the fact that it has been used that way, music has been used therapeutically, I think, and we give a few examples of that just tells you that it’s doing something a little different than language. It’s doing something a little different than than other forms of sound. And so that’s that to me is really exciting.

Mindy Peterson: [00:10:33] So the second movement, it talks about how the human brain creates music. It talks about how composing and improvising are very distinct creative processes. Tell us anything else that you want listeners to know about some of the material that’s covered in this second movement?

Dennis Plies: [00:10:50] I’d love for people to realize that in in composing, you’re doing a lot of thinking and decision making, and you can edit in improvising. You have to have a background of vocabulary and lots of preparation, but then you let loose and you actually are supposed to not think.

Mindy Peterson: [00:11:14] So there’s a very distinct activation and deactivation of certain brain networks that happens depending on if you’re composing or improvising.

Larry Sherman: [00:11:24] Right? And that’s and that was kind of a remarkably interesting thing for me to see as a neuroscientist, is that in the state of composing, when you’re doing all this planning and you’re doing all these, you’re really working within a framework to try to achieve something. Your brain may be doing one thing, but when you’re just letting go, as Dennis mentions, your brain is actually deactivating networks. It’s almost like it’s allowing you to color outside the box. It’s allowing you to break rules so that you can create something really different. And I think that’s just just fascinating. And also just the idea that it’s not just individual brain areas, but networks of brain areas that are being turned off or on to allow you to kind of free yourself up to to do this this activity. And I think the the other interesting aspect of that was that it may it may not be the same for every person, but there’s a lot of commonality with regards to the circuitry. And it may not even be the same for every genre of music. But again, there’s there’s things that are happening in general with regards to areas that become turned on in the brain and areas that get turned off to let you let you do that.

Mindy Peterson: [00:12:30] Yeah. And there was that section. That’s the classical brain versus the jazz brain that would, I think, be really intriguing, especially for faculty members to read, you know, and kind of contrast and compare their own brains to their colleagues brains, depending on if they’re more classical or jazz focused. Yeah.

Larry Sherman: [00:12:49] And in retrospect, I think the way we wrote that was based on the data that was that we had out there because we were really focusing on studies that looked at classical music versus jazz. But you could probably say the same thing about rap or hip hop or country music versus electronic music. I mean, all these different genres, there are differences and the brain does react differently to them. And it’s not just based on what you like either. There’s there are different things happening in terms of what those sounds are creating and the circuitry of our brain. Huh?

Mindy Peterson: [00:13:20] Well, the next three movements, movement three, four and five are related to how to practice. And as a former music teacher, I really enjoy these chapters and found them really fascinating. And it kind of brought me back two years ago. Much earlier in my teaching career, there was a student’s parent who contacted me and her. Her son was old enough that she wanted to be sort of hands off with his piano lesson experience. She kind of wanted him to be independent and take this on by himself. But she contacted me once she and she said, you know what, your next lesson with him, could you explain a little bit more to him how to practice? Like, I don’t think he exactly knows how to practice. And I remember her saying that and I remember thinking. Wow. Like how can you not know how to practice? But then the more I thought about it, I thought, I guess that like, that’s a great question. And if he’s having that uncertainty and that, um, you know, questioning and hesitation, I’m sure a bunch of other students are. And so his next lesson, we kind of I went through the assignments with him and really broke it down like, this is what I mean. This is exactly what I want you to do. And he was kind of like, Oh, okay. And I thought, Oh my goodness, how could I have just, you know, assumed he knew that. And obviously he didn’t. And then I had these conversations with other students at their lessons and said, okay, this is what I want you to do. And then I said, Do you know what I mean by that? Do you or do you want me to explain what I mean with how to practice this? And their face kind of lit up and they’re like, Yeah, can you explain that? And I was like, Oh my goodness, I have totally missed this, you know? So it was really fun to read these three movements on how to practice but tell us tell us a little bit about what’s included in these.

Dennis Plies: [00:15:12] Chapters and what you just mentioned has to do with the relationship of the teacher and the student and that the student opened up and you found out then something you didn’t realize. But that relationship is so vital. That’s really a lot of the first movement of the three that are dealing with practicing and then what’s going on in the brain when when we are practicing and then the effects of practicing music on on the brain specifically.

Larry Sherman: [00:15:44] I think one of the things I loved about writing these three chapters with Dennis is just hearing his experiences with different people. And we we recount some of those stories in the book. Yeah. And what worked for some people didn’t work for others. Yeah. And then breaking that down and realizing that there’s so much data out there about people with specific personality traits. I mean, there’s this idea of grit, for example, which, you know, it’s a cool idea. The idea that you can have perseverance, stick to itiveness, but also combined with motivation and these other aspects of your personality that really help you succeed when you do something like learn to play an instrument. And then we break that down even further. I think it’s the fifth movement where we really show what your brain is doing in the context of practice. I mean, you’re making monumental changes to the structure of your brain when you’re learning to play a new instrument. It’s pretty cool. I mean, yeah, you’re adding you’re adding cells, you’re adding structure to cells that allow for high speed connectivity. You’re changing memory, you’re changing all sorts of things and you realize the demand. I mean, I think we we walk in that chapter through just the idea of reading a note on a page and what we’re doing to play that single note.

Mindy Peterson: [00:17:01] Yes, right.

Larry Sherman: [00:17:02] And you realize that’s happening in Picoseconds. Right. So but just that demand and what you have to do to get to that point to play well, for me, I think that was a joy to write because I learned so much just interacting with Dennis and again, going back to our our respondents of our survey and hearing their input on what they think about and do when they practice and what what is success to them, you know, Yeah.

Mindy Peterson: [00:17:27] Agree. And I love to some of those stories that you as you mentioned, you told about Dennis and his students and how some of them responded in different ways to the lessons. And you mentioned how the brain is changing so much as we’re learning music and learning to play a musical instrument. But then there’s also so many ways that those skills translate to everyday life, whether it’s analytical thinking skills or just an expanded outlook more. You mentioned one student found that he really found his entertainment choices became more he gravitated toward more intellectually challenging entertainment. Yeah. And just felt like his critical thinking skills change and yeah, had more depth and complexity in his outlook on life. He felt more well-rounded, more complete. So that was really neat. I really liked too, how you talked about the one student that ended up quitting, and it was it was a person who just found things typically 99% of the time came very easily to him. And learning to play a musical instrument was an exception to that rule. And he just wasn’t used to feeling that frustration and just kind of gave it up. He was kind of shocked. Well, you were shocked. I think that he suddenly quit because it seemed to be going fine to you, but he just wasn’t used to having that level of frustration.

Mindy Peterson: [00:18:56] He was used to seeing things coming so easily. And that reminded me. I had twin boys who took piano lessons from me at one time and they would get so frustrated. And again, from my perspective, I thought felt they were. Went great, but they would get so frustrated and didn’t necessarily see it. But the mom told me she’s like, I this is the reason I’m keeping them in piano lessons is they’re so smart. Everything comes so easily to them. They don’t have to develop that grit that Larry was mentioning. They don’t have to develop frustration, tolerance ever, except for piano. It’s like that just doesn’t come as easy. And they get to experience what most of us experience regularly and it’s so great for them. She’s like, I’ve never seen them get so frustrated, but they have to figure it out and work through it. And again, I didn’t see that at lessons. They were always very poised and polite and and everything, but I thought that was really insightful on the mothers part to recognize that and recognize the value and keeping them in it. Anything else that you want to mention about these movements?

Dennis Plies: [00:20:00] Well, I think once you have practiced, it’s time to perform and and that’s a whole different event for the brain and for the experiences as you are affected by the audience and you’re affected if you’re performing with others that you’re affected by the others. And Larry gets into the brain on that part.

Mindy Peterson: [00:20:20] Yeah. So is that the next movement that you’re talking about? Yeah, that’s performs music Sixth Movement.

Larry Sherman: [00:20:26] Yeah. Um, so we spend three movements working on practice, and that’s about right. We should, we should give about that much time to practice. And then this one chapter on performance and some of these things make sense if you just think about them for a minute. It’s like what you’re doing when we’re performing is based on all that practice that you did. But what you’re doing is really quite different because you’re also if you’re performing for people, for example, it’s a matter of all the brains in the room, right? There’s your brain at the piano or the trumpet or the saxophone or whatever you’re playing, or even if you’re a vocalist, right? And then you might have to think about what’s how is your brain being affected by the brains that are listening to you? Yeah. What are they doing? How are they responding to you? Are they are they fidgeting? Are they moving around and crumpling paper? Are they getting up and leaving, you know, or are they clapping their hands with you? And those are all going to affect how you play. So it’s it’s what you’re doing when you’re practicing is so different from what you’re doing when you’re performing. But but the things in the room with you and the people in the room with you are going to affect your play as well because it’s not the same space. It’s not the same. What your brain is doing is really quite different.

Mindy Peterson: [00:21:34] Yeah, I love how you point that out. And stage fright can play into how our brains respond when we’re performing versus practicing. You talk about that, that audience.

Larry Sherman: [00:21:44] That was something that was really surprising to me when I spoke to several professional musicians, including an opera singer who is quite accomplished as a performer. I was surprised how many people were taking beta blockers and other medications to calm themselves enough to get over their stage fright. And that, you know, when you think about that, it makes some sense. I mean, you know, getting up in front of, you know, even 20 people can be daunting. Imagine getting up in front of a few thousand people is even more daunting. And I feel that sometimes, you know, I I’m a ham. I ham it up when I get on stage. But but, you know, my heart rate definitely goes up when I’m about to play piano. And I’ll never forget giving this talk one time, not knowing that I was going to be doing it at a large hall in Cleveland, Ohio, called Severance Hall, which is one of the foremost concert halls in the country. Wow. And I get to sit down and give my talk at sitting at a piano that’s been played by some of the top pianists in the world at this in front of this audience. And, you know, it was nerve wracking because I’m a scientist, I’m not a musician. My my music part of me is something that, you know, is not something I do professionally. And so to to get over that fear, you know, you have to really do something with your with your with yourself to move on because that’s not something you’re dealing with when you’re practicing. Sure.

Mindy Peterson: [00:23:09] Well, and you point out in that chapter, too, about how how those ear molecules move and vibrate in the air are affected by the hall that you’re in, whether it’s carpeted, what kind of wall coverings there are, the acoustics of the space, how many people are in the room. And those, again, are things that are beyond our control and are different than when we’re practicing. We’re typically not practicing in the room where we’re performing. And even if we are, there’s different numbers of bodies which can affect temperature and humidity and all of those things. So that’s something that is really intriguing to read your description of that too. And that movement, you’ve got.

Larry Sherman: [00:23:50] To adapt to all of it. It’s just not something you think about when you’re practicing in your favorite practice space.

Mindy Peterson: [00:23:56] Yeah, so Movement seven and eight, how your brain listens to music and comes to like or dislike different types of music. Talk to us about these two movements.

Larry Sherman: [00:24:07] Yeah, so the the listening part. It’s amazing when you think about all the things we have to do so quickly. I mentioned earlier and we talk about it initially in the first movement that, you know, once these air molecules enter our ears, they stimulate these cells in the ear, the apparatus of the ear that are then sent to this part of the brain called the auditory cortex. And what’s remarkable is that there are cells in the auditory cortex that respond to every sound there is but light up. There are some cells that only light up, apparently in response to what they perceive as music. And from there, these cells are projected to all these different places in the brain which involve memory, which involve emotion, which involve the ability to take those sounds and compute them into rhythms, timbre, all the other aspects of sound and music, and then putting it together and letting you respond to it. If there’s a nice beat, you might induce some toe tapping. If there’s a beautiful rhythm that really affects you, it might drive you to tears or might make you smile. So there’s all these things that are happening so quickly when we when we just listen to music.

Mindy Peterson: [00:25:16] Some of the highlights from these movements. For me. Where were you? Talk about eight different benefits of feeling sadness when listening to sad music, and I just loved that we actually have had an episode on, um, I think it was called Hurts So Good. And it’s like, why do we love listening to Sad music and what are the benefits but love the eight benefits that you share about feeling sadness when listening to sad music. You also talk about the the cannabinoid receptors that are involved. When we like something, whether it’s an experience of food and how music can engage those same regions and the reward network of our brains. Uh, endocannabinoids, am I saying that right? Yeah.

Larry Sherman: [00:26:06] Well, it’s the stuff that you turns on your brain when you smoke weed.

Mindy Peterson: [00:26:10] Yeah. Which just became legal in Minnesota, by the way.

Larry Sherman: [00:26:13] That’s. It’s been legal here in Oregon for a while.

Mindy Peterson: [00:26:16] Yeah.

Larry Sherman: [00:26:16] But. But, yeah, it’s actually multiple systems because actually, the first, the first part of that system is actually the opioid opioid receptor system, which of course gets turned on by things like opium. But if you like something that you’re experiencing, it tends to trigger this response for these so-called mu opioid receptors. And if you like something enough, it drives you to have this reward signaling involving dopamine, a neurotransmitter in our brains, and that causes you to want that thing. So you hear a song and you really like it that drives you to want to hear more or want to hear the song again. And then eventually you’ve heard it and you feel satisfied with it. And that kicks in a whole nother set of neurochemistry. And you’re satisfied. You’re happy. It makes you feel good. Sometimes that goes wrong, though, of course. So one idea about earworms is that you you hear something, you like it, and then you want to hear it and then you like it some more. And then you want to hear it some more. And you like it some more. And it just keeps on going and going. You can’t get it out of your head. By the way, this is also an underlying mechanism for addiction. And so there’s been a lot of questions about whether you can actually become addicted to music to the point where it’s affecting your life negatively. And there’s some debate about that, but the pathways are pretty much the same.

Mindy Peterson: [00:27:37] Wow. So those are the eight movements. Is there anything else that you either one of you just has in your mind like, Oh, I wish we would have talked about that with one of those movements before we kind of wrap things up. Anything else that we didn’t quite get to that you want to point out?

Dennis Plies: [00:27:52] I think we covered well these various topics.

Larry Sherman: [00:27:56] Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of really fun, fun little things in each chapter. Obviously, we can’t go into them all in this interview today. But I did love the fact that our editors actually asked us to go back and better cover one feature of the human mind, which is how we deal with curiosity. And it comes up again, again and again in the book. We went back and really looked at that more seriously. And we use Beethoven as an example of how curiosity drives creativity. And if you think about his piano sonatas, how they changed, he actually wrote in letters to two friends that he was curious about going in different directions, and that was driving him to really change the way he he played. And curiosity also drives your like of music. You hear something that you’ve not heard before and it makes you curious about hearing more and then you do listen more. And it’s actually what drives people on modern platforms like Spotify to listen to more music. They’re curious about something new and they want to hear more. And that’s that’s something that drives our liking of music. It also drives our desire to make new kinds of music, and it also drives our ability to practice because we’re curious about. How how the best play something or how to change a chord from one pattern to another, for example. So there’s lots of little things like that in the book that I thought was really fun to write, just because I learned so much in doing the background research for each chapter.

Dennis Plies: [00:29:24] I recently was teaching the first piano lesson to a 60 year old person, and after a successful first lesson, which is tough, all the things you have to do like Portia to play one note, she was thumbing through the more of the book and saw these things called Sharps and Flats, and she says, Oh, I’m petrified. They really give fear to me. And because we’ve we’ve written the book the word. I said, Well, might you look at that as curiosity? You know, they’re curious to learn what these little buggers are instead of having fear about them. So yeah, curiosity was that’s.

Mindy Peterson: [00:30:09] A powerful reframing. Yeah. Uh huh. Love that. Well, there are two quotes from your book that I just want to read because they do such a great job of just kind of summarizing the content of the book and some of the benefits. One of the quotes is, by the end of this journey, you will better understand how human beings create, practice, perform and listen to music. You will also gain insights into how the neuroscience underlying these activities can help you appreciate the origins of your own creativity, inspire approaches to teaching and learning, and reveal whole new ways to appreciate the music and other art around you. So that was one quote that I just loved. I work a lot in my day job with university faculty, music faculty members, and I definitely want to share this book and this episode with them because I just feel like there’s so, so much treasure to mine in these pages. The other quote that I want to read from your book is We hope this book helps you consider how challenging your brain to learn something new that involves movement, sensation and cognition can lead to remarkable changes not only in the structure of your brain, but also in who you are as a human being. And that quote just kind of speaks to the fact that this book is for anyone, anyone who wants to learn more, understand more about music, how they experience music, how they relate to music, and how to become a lifelong learner, how to be curious, how to understand creativity. So that’s those are the two quotes that I just kind of want to leave with listeners to kind of whet their appetite a little bit more for this book. I ask all of my guests to close out our conversation with a musical ending coda by sharing a song or a story about a moment that music enhanced your life. Do one of you have a song or story that you can share with us today, in closing?

Larry Sherman: [00:32:13] Well, so one of the things I do, I write a lot of grants and sometimes I get writer’s block and I’ll just go and sit down at the piano and play a little jazz or a little blues or make up something and some classical genre. And so for me, that’s it’s almost like therapy. And once I do that, I can step away and feel like I can get back to the topic at hand. And so that’s one of the things I love to do, is just sit down and play a little blues at the piano.

Mindy Peterson: [00:32:41] And listeners are going to hear a short video clip, the audio from it. And is that what you were doing in this clip?

Larry Sherman: [00:32:49] Yes, that’s exactly it. That was actually that in that clip, I was actually being taped for a television interview. I think it was about, you know, the power of creativity in music. But but yeah, that’s exactly what I was doing at that moment. That’s the kind of thing I’ll just sit down and improvise.

Transcribed by Sonix.ai