Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.
Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson. And this is Enhance Life with Music, where we explore the ways music makes our lives better. One question that I get asked a lot is where I find my guests. I learned about today’s guests from a college student shout out to Molly Hennig. Molly and I struck up a conversation at Schmitt Music where I work. Molly was there with her mom, who was there to do a piano selection for the college where she’s on the music faculty. Molly was hanging out with her mom that day, and so we were chatting and I found out Molly was a composer. She’s done some video game music composition. She recently finished her master’s in musicology and was starting a PhD program. And one thing led to another, we got talking about video game music, and Molly was telling me about the work of Winifred Phillips, who is an award winning video game composer who’s also written an award winning, bestselling book that Molly had utilized in her master’s work. And I said, oh, tell me more. This sounds like a really fascinating potential podcast guest, and the rest is history. I reached out to Winifred. She was gracious enough to agree to join us today. Winifred has composed music for games in many of the biggest and best franchises in gaming, including Assassin’s Creed, God of War, Total War, The Sims and Little Big Planet. She is an in-demand speaker and author, as I mentioned, of the bestselling book called A Composer’s Guide to Game Music. Molly came across that, like I mentioned, during her master’s work and expects to come back to it during her doctorate, and she’s very interested in video game work. Thank you so much for joining us today. Winifred. Welcome to Enhance Life with Music.
Winifred Phillips: [00:01:49] Thank you so much, Mindy. I’m really looking forward to this. It’s a marvelous podcast.
Mindy Peterson: [00:01:55] Well thank you. I’m really looking forward to it too. And I full disclosure, I will admit I am not a gamer. My perspective is quite shallow and limited, so I will out myself right at the beginning here. But you know, you don’t have to be a movie critic to have watched some movies and really be fascinated by the role that music plays in movies. And I feel the same way about gaming. You know, I’m not an experienced gamer, but we’ve all played video games of some sort, and I find it really fascinating. This relationship and role that music has with gaming, the the function that it plays in video games. So I’m really excited to hear what you have to say today.
Winifred Phillips: [00:02:39] Well, thanks so much, Mindy.
Mindy Peterson: [00:02:40] Yeah, your book was published in 2017, since that was sort of the point of our initial connection through Molly. Could you start out by just telling us about the book? I know the title is quite descriptive and self-explanatory A Composer’s Guide to Game Music, but if there’s some content you’d like to elaborate on that you want our listeners to know about, let us know that, and also why you wrote it. What was the impetus for writing it?
Winifred Phillips: [00:03:07] Oh, absolutely. When I first started as a game composer, there weren’t really very many resources available to practitioners of that art, to people making music for games. Game audio was kind of considered a catch all area, where if you were making sound effects and music, you were essentially a generalist and you were creating the assets that the game would need in order to have a nice sound scape.
Mindy Peterson: [00:03:34] And about what year are we talking about right now where you said there wasn’t a whole lot of that composition going on for gaming?
Winifred Phillips: [00:03:40] Well, my first game project was in 2005. I think God of War came out in.
Mindy Peterson: [00:03:49] Oh, so that recent, I guess I would have thought this would have been something that was really evolving and and growing earlier. Now I’m thinking back to 70 or 80s. My older brother, I think, came home from a garage sale with an Atari, an old Atari game that maybe worked half the time, and I think it had one game pole position that it came with. So I mean, that was like my first experience with gaming. And then when I was old enough to babysit, some of my babysitting kids had Mario brothers. But, you know, I mean, music was really a big factor in Mario Brothers. So I’m surprised that it was in the 2000 that this field of music video game composing really started.
Winifred Phillips: [00:04:37] Well, the the people were creating the audio, but they weren’t talking about it. There weren’t any books available that addressed the that that addressed the the art of creating music for games. When you looked for for books that would give you some sense of of guidance about how to do that. They would be generalist books for game audio. Commissioners that would talk about sound effects and and atmospheric design and also music as a part of that. But from that perspective, it wasn’t really a composer’s perspective. And yeah, it was the perspective of an audio technician, audio practitioner, a sound designer, someone who comes from that area of the of the discipline. And so as a composer who was I had before I had worked in game music, I was the composer for a series of dramas on National Public Radio. So I had come from a linear composition background, creating music.
Mindy Peterson: [00:05:39] What you mean by linear composition?
Winifred Phillips: [00:05:42] Oh, well, for a traditional media, like a television show or a radio drama, in this case, the the program has a set beginning, middle and end. It’s going to run its course. There is a series of events that will occur in the same way every time in a line. Essentially, that’s why we think of it as being linear. And so when you’re creating music for a work like that, you can predict exactly how your music is going to flow, and you can plan it that way, where the emotional swells will happen, where you’re going to create moments of emphasis to enhance drama, or to to help the audience to comprehend important plot points, things like that. And so that is a very specific discipline, and it’s well, well practiced and well discussed in the fields of film and television, music, and of course, in classical music composition. It’s very well known, but for for game music, it’s an entirely different kind of practice because game music is an interactive construct. As you play a game, you don’t know how the game is going to progress. The player has choice and personal agency, and because of that, the player can guide the game experience in a lot of unpredictable directions.
Mindy Peterson: [00:07:04] Which Molly was talking about this in our conversation and I was like, oh my goodness, I never thought about that before. But that was so fascinating. It’s almost like one of those books that’s like choose Your Own Adventure book, where you get to certain chapters and you can choose which direction the main character takes, and that leads you to a potentially different ending from another reader who chooses a different outcome.
Winifred Phillips: [00:07:28] That is so true, and it’s a real challenge as a game composer to create music that can adapt and fluidly morph into different emotional and kinetic states, depending upon what the player is doing and what they’re trying to achieve at any given time. The the the factors that are coming together to create the gameplay state that you’re currently in and the music needs to reflect that. And so that that is a very specific discipline. And it wasn’t really being discussed in in books at the time. It’s a very challenging art form, but it’s still an art form, even though it’s there’s so much technical consideration that needs to go into it. And so that was really a big part of why I wanted to write A Composer’s Guide to Game Music and why it has that title. It is a composer’s guide to game music, so that it points the guidance towards music practitioners and the kinds of considerations that we have, moving from linear composition forms to more interactive, more dynamic constructs, so that the music can best serve the needs of the game and make gameplay more fun.
Mindy Peterson: [00:08:44] That’s really fascinating. And I’ll point out, too, that in the book, you do also cover things like acquiring the necessary creative skills to understanding this function of music in games, also finding work in the field, musicianship, developing musical themes, workflow, and guidance on protecting the composer’s musical identities when they’re working in a highly technical field. So very comprehensive guide for people who are interested in this type of composing. Well thank.
Winifred Phillips: [00:09:18] You. Yeah.
Mindy Peterson: [00:09:19] So tell us a little bit about this really unique process of composing interactive music. And actually let me back up a little bit. Describe for us a little bit about how you see the function, the unique function and role that music plays in the video game experience, how it shapes the overall gaming experience compared to other forms of media.
Winifred Phillips: [00:09:41] Yes, this is what makes game music composition so inspiring for me. I feel like when I’m creating music for a game, I’m essentially having a an emotional conversation with the player. It’s a back and forth and that makes it really. Intriguing work as a composer. The music in a game needs to be able to react to what the player does. So on the one hand, it’s commenting on the choices the player is making, perhaps congratulating them on successes or lamenting failures or or or pointing out moments of concern or issues that need to be addressed. It can act in a lot of ways, like a heads up display, in that it provides information to the player that allows the player to more successfully navigate the challenges that the game is posing. And so that is something that you really don’t have to think about as a composer for other forms of entertainment media, right? Yeah. But it’s it’s really interesting work as a composer for games. Plus games are a uniquely active, proactive activity for the people who enjoy them. When you’re watching a TV show or a film, you’re you’re passive. You’re you’re just observing. But when you’re playing a game, you are engaged in an active way. You’re forming personal memories as you play the game. So it means that the music has a more profound relationship to that kind of memory formation. The the way in which we remember music that plays during significant activities in our lives. That’s the same effect that takes place when we remember music from games that were particularly exciting or meaningful to us. Music sticks more in the mind from games than it does from other forms of entertainment, because we’re so engaged as we hear it and we make those associations. It’s an experiential memory, not a passive one. And that’s really fascinating for me.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:49] Yeah, that is interesting. And it reminds me of an experience that I had. This was many years ago now, but I went to a water ski show locally here, the twin Cities River rats, I think they’re called, but they had Mario Brothers theme for their water ski show, so they had costumes and props. And then of course, some of those little musical themes playing. And it’s like as soon as you hear those little motives or themes, it just took me right back to, you know, being a teenager and babysitting these kids, and they’re trying to show me how to play these games, you know? So yeah, it really does bring back those memories and impact you and really imprint on the brain.
Winifred Phillips: [00:12:29] It really does. There’s something about a memorable video game theme, as it’s associated with a memorable, active gameplay moment that just solidifies its its grip on your consciousness. It’s very memorable and and it really imprints itself pretty deeply. I think that’s one of the reasons why a video game concert tours are so powerful when when people go in costume to see an orchestra playing their favorite video game themes and and they yeah, they cheer when all of their favorite melodies come up and it’s it’s just it’s a different experience than any other kind of concert tours associated with media, because everybody feels a sense of of personal investment in those melodies. They they have their own personal memories that are connected to those melodies. And so they’re they mean more and they’re they’re more fun. It’s it’s more of a cathartic experience. And it’s great to experience it all together in a, in a concert hall. So it’s a really fun experience to, to go to one of those. I had my music performed as a part of the Assassin’s Creed Symphony World Tour, and I got a chance to experience firsthand what it’s like when the audience just kind of kind of bubbles up into a roar when they hear the yeah, oh, it’s so exciting when that kind of that recognition happens. Yeah. And just and the sense of community is fantastic. It really sort of pulls everyone together with a, a shared love of an experience that they all had while separately, it also feels like they had it together because they’re they’re reliving it together. And that’s that’s amazing. Yeah.
Mindy Peterson: [00:14:13] That’s such great points about just the interactive nature. And I hadn’t thought about that. I’m aware of many orchestras playing movie music and having concerts surrounding that experience, but I hadn’t thought about the difference with the gaming music concerts, and that totally makes sense. So it would be even that much more just interactive and bonding. And just like that conversation, you mentioned that composing video game music is like this emotional conversation with the player, and I just love that and just the the emotional or the commenting on their playing and things like that. And so just to continue that conversation on a deeper level through these concerts must be really rewarding, especially when you see the impact that your music has made on all of these players. Years.
Winifred Phillips: [00:14:59] It really is amazing. It’s the kind of direct feedback that really inspires. Excitement for for future work. Just to be able to sort of soak in the, the, the response. A lot of the times as media composers in both television and film and in video games, we. Create the music. But we don’t get to see the, the, the response, the of the people who are experiencing the music in the product that it was incorporated within. And so getting a chance to see it performed in that way is just tremendously rewarding.
Mindy Peterson: [00:15:34] Oh I bet. So tell us a little bit about how do you, as a composer, approach this composition process differently than a linear composition project? What are some of the different factors that you think about and, you know, how does it start at a different place? Just talk to us a little bit about how that composition process is different.
Winifred Phillips: [00:15:56] Yeah, it’s a really interesting process. It took me a long time to to learn. I’ve been doing this for a while and it’s a truly unique way to create music. It’s kind of combining the artistry of music creation with with puzzle solving, because you have to you have to take the music and look at it not only as a single expression of a musical idea, but also in terms of all of its component parts. When music is performed by an ensemble, there are lots of different instrumentalists who are playing together, and they all have their own parts to play, and it sort of comes together to create the fabric of the music we’re hearing. But as a game composer, it’s important to think of all of those individual performances as separate assets and to consider how they might work if they were triggered independently. The idea being that we could take an ensemble of instrumentalists and remove some of the performances to thin out the mix. When gameplay is quieting down. Or perhaps things are becoming suspenseful and we want a sense of hush. And then as the anxiety or the momentum picks up or the activity becomes more dense, the instruments start being introduced into the mix by the game engine, and the musicality becomes more complex and interesting, perhaps more rhythmic, more more dense. And the energy level picks up. And all of these components need to be prepared separately. So we have to look at ourselves as creating both a full composition and also a set of component parts that can stand alone, that can work on their own in addition to with each other. Like many ensembles within a large orchestra, that you could isolate parts of it and it would work and create a certain impression, but then you can bring it all together and it’s a very different feeling, too.
Mindy Peterson: [00:18:01] So some of those different components are sort of the comments that you are talking about. I imagine commenting on a certain play that a player may make either a failed play if they. I’m just going back to my Mario brothers when they fall down, you know. But what are some of the I imagine it’s kind of those comments. It’s the, the motifs and the recurring themes that represent different characters or places or concepts, and then also different components creating that overall feel that you mentioned in terms of if the play is kind of thinning out, it’s more of a hushed aspect or if it’s really building and there’s a lot more drama that you want the player to experience. Are there other components that you want to mention that some of these different musical components sort of play into and create?
Winifred Phillips: [00:18:54] You make a really good point about themes. That’s a challenge as a game composer, but it’s also so worthwhile to pursue when we’re creating music that’s in a lot of bits and pieces, which is essentially what we’re doing for creating music for video games. We’re creating music that can be pulled apart and then put back together like a puzzle. So it’s in a lot of pieces, and that can make creating melodies that develop and are satisfying a real challenge because they can be pulled apart. How do you pull apart a melody that is going to feel satisfying when you’re listening to it? So it takes a very delicate and careful hand to make that work. For instance, in creating music for the Little Big Planet franchise, there was a track called Stitch Manor that is set in kind of like a diabolical kitchen. Your your main character is running through a steamy kind of hot environment full of pots and pans and forks and spoons and things like that, and it’s great fun, but it’s also built around this. Musical system. That’s called vertical layering, where you have lots of different instrumental performances that are playing simultaneously, and you can turn them on and off depending upon what’s going on. And I would have a one of those layers would be melodic, and it had a lot of commentary motifs, things that seemed to emotionally reflect what might be going on during gameplay. Little, little trills and lilts and things that that were in the sort of whimsical flavor of gameplay during that particular level of the game, and it was structured so that you could jump into it anywhere, and it would feel satisfying. It would it it would come into play and would join the rest of the, the arrangement.
Winifred Phillips: [00:20:47] And you’d have a foreground element that felt very melodic, but also connected to the visual kinetics and the the general comedy and whimsy of the little Big Planet games. So that was a way to solve the riddle of it. When you’re dealing with a highly interactive musical score. The Little Big Planet games are highly interactive in terms of the musical construct. They have a very complicated vertical layering system, so that that’s always interesting and challenging to work on. And I’ve done quite a lot of little Big Planet games now, so it’s been such a pleasure to work with the folks at Sony on the music for those games. It’s such a creative challenge and very eclectic and interesting and really enjoy it very much. But the thematic idea of expressing musical themes in games, it’s also important, I think, to help players to to keep track of what’s going on. Games can be very long, experiences, mean hours of playing and and lots to keep track of. I remember when I was composing the music for Assassin’s Creed Liberation, I had lots of melodies associated with characters and situations, locations, significant significant ideas, and plot points. Because you play an Assassin’s Creed game for a very long time, and it’s very challenging to keep track of all of these different elements. So I felt like it was my responsibility as a as the composer for this game, to help the player, to stay immersed, to stay involved in it, not feel like they’re constantly trying to gather details and remember what’s going on, just to keep the emotional through point, running through it. And so that was fun. Creating that number of musical themes was really interesting and fun to do.
Mindy Peterson: [00:22:41] Wow, there’s so many layers to this. It really is a complex type of composition that you’re talking about. Definitely different than Pac-Man music, you know, from Days of Old, and it really makes me want to play Assassin’s Creed or, you know, one of these games. So if any of my friends are listening to this and you have one of these games that Winifred’s talking about, call me up and see if and invite me over to play them, because I’d love to experience them. Knowing what I know now about all that goes into the musical elements of these games. In addition to composing music for video games, what are other music jobs and careers related to video games that a budding young gamer and musician may not be aware of, but might want to consider?
Winifred Phillips: [00:23:30] You know, that’s a really good question. It’s nice to be flexible when you’re going into this field because it’s quite competitive, so it’s good to have options. A lot of people who start in music for video games also branch into sound design because their related fields, and it’s a great way to learn the tools and techniques and become very immersed in how audio is put together for games of different types. So that’s a way that a lot of people start exploring a career as a video game composer, sound designer. Music design is also a marvelous opportunity that’s growing lately. It involves the design of interactive music structures and implementation strategies, as well as authoring music design documents and doing editing work on submitted cues, essentially making it all come together. It’s kind of an administrative role, but you couldn’t find a better opportunity to learn how it all works than doing that kind of job well.
Mindy Peterson: [00:24:31] And one thing that’s neat about all of the technology that’s at our fingertips today is a lot of these. A lot of the skills that are involved in these different career paths that you’re talking about are probably accessible to kids now, either with an app on their phone, on a website, a YouTube video, you know, things like that where they can learn more and kind of get a little bit of experience doing that. Are there any resources or recommendations that you have for listeners who might want? To dip their toe in and learn a little bit more about some of these different career paths.
Winifred Phillips: [00:25:04] Oh well. There are lots of online resources for just learning about being a game audio creator or game music creator. The Game Audio Network Guild is a fantastic resource. They are associated with an annual conference, the Game Developers Conference. There’s also Gamesoundcon. That’s very excellent. If people want to go and kind of meet lots of game audio people and find out about what it’s like to create audio and music. Also, there are social media communities that can be really helpful. There’s a game audio subreddit and that’s great. Lots of help there. There’s also a game audio Twitter hashtag that’s been helpful for a lot of years.
Mindy Peterson: [00:25:45] Great resources there. And of course, this is all obviously in addition to reading your book, which will for sure have a link to in the show notes. Do you have any predictions about the future of video game music as it evolves, or is there anything that’s really exciting you the most right now about the potential of music and upcoming gaming experiences?
Winifred Phillips: [00:26:07] Oh well. This has been a really exciting time to be in game audio. Just generally video game music and video game audio is a very wide field and there’s just an enormous assortment of genres and specializations, and there’s room for everybody really there. The big budget orchestral epics, but they’re also intimate acoustic guitar scores and and scores that are just consisting of electronic instruments and very quirky and intimate and fun. And there’s a lot of room for a lot of different perspectives creatively. Dynamic music is always fascinating. The interactive construct can really make it fun for us to explore and be ambitious, and try to push forward in terms of how responsive game music can be. Also, the industry is evolving with new approaches just to the implementation of music and the way it sounds in games. With virtual reality. We started to get a lot of the reintroduction of binaural and ambisonic approaches to game audio so that more immersive surround quality too. And that was something that was used in game audio many years ago. And then it essentially fell to the wayside when surround sound became the more accepted standard. But surround sound isn’t a full sphere, it’s just essentially a hula hoop around you, so you don’t get the sense of completely encapsulating immersion that binaural sound can give you or Ambisonics, but that’s becoming much more prevalent now with the with the growth of virtual reality, which is really pumped, a lot of ambition and a scope into the work of game audio folks. And I’ve been enjoying seeing how the the ambitions have broadened out lately. It’s going to be fun seeing how it progresses.
Mindy Peterson: [00:28:02] Wow. Well, as you’re talking about all of that, I’m thinking what a great opportunity for high school teachers and educators to pull in a great Stem or Steam course on some of these topics, because you’re talking about binaural sound, and I’m thinking about all the science components and physics of sound and all of those aspects combined with music and technology engineering. You know, there’s so many different aspects that you could pull together and just even an introductory course. And I can imagine kids would just absolutely love a topic on that.
Winifred Phillips: [00:28:36] Oh, it’s it is such fun. I’ve heard such great stories from game audio teachers about the wonderful ways in which students are able to be creative in these courses. They tend to be very hands on creating their own game music scores and implementation strategies. They work with teams that do game jams, essentially where they’re creating games on the fly. All at once. And that’s just so much fun. And it’s just a it’s an inspiring thing to be able to learn as you make something, to learn as you create. I think that’s one of the the finest ways to give your heart to your career is when you are constantly personally growing as you’re making new things. So I think it’s really awesome to to see more and more game music and game audio educational resources becoming available and courses like that are really phenomenal.
Mindy Peterson: [00:29:33] Do you know, are there are many colleges who offer courses specific to video game design like I know or video game music design? I know Michigan State does because I had interviewed Ryan Thompson on that early in the podcast, and I can put a link in the show notes to that episode. But do you know how many colleges offer specific courses around that?
Winifred Phillips: [00:29:55] Yeah, there are quite a few. I couldn’t tell you off the. Top of my head, all the different ones that I have heard of. But there are there are a lot of them. And now and it is a growing field, I think that it’s probably because video games as a, as an industry are just constantly growing. It’s a very successful and lucrative field that rivals and in some ways exceeds the the film and television world. So in just in terms of the outreach, the people that’s reaching the and the just the GDP it’s bringing in. So yeah, it’s it is a very big field. So there is a lot of interest in it, both from students and from faculties. I think the only barrier in terms of the educational programs that are created is the innately fluid nature of game development as a whole. It still feels a little bit like the Wild West, because inasmuch as game development is a new a new profession when compared to creating television, creating film. Yeah. Relatively speaking, yeah, it is. So as much as that we do have a sense of history and disciplines that we’re developing and sharing, there’s also a sense of of mavericks out there in the wide blue and experimenting and creating new things. So it’s I think it might be a tough thing for the educational programs to keep up with what’s going on in the Wild West of game development, but, but, but it certainly is worthwhile to do. And if you’ve had a first hand experience creating game music and game audio as a part of your educational experience, you’re really you’re a step ahead when you actually try to move into the field as a professional.
Mindy Peterson: [00:31:46] Well, I am looking forward to hearing about the new and exciting projects that you are working on real quick. First though, I did get a few bonus questions from Molly. I had emailed her and was like okay, this is when I get to talk to Winifred. Here’s the questions I’m going to ask her. Do you have any other questions that you recommend? And she sent a three questions. So I’m going to quick sneak these in here. Molly asks let’s see here. She said you could ask if Winifred thinks the audience reception of video games and video game soundtracks has changed since 2005, when she wrote for God of War.
Winifred Phillips: [00:32:24] That’s an interesting question. Yeah, I would say definitely many people, when they think of video games, think of their first experiences with them at just like what you said you thought of Mario, and Mario is a very definitive eight bit sound. It is a very specific and it was challenging to create at the time, but the technology was limited and people like to refer to it as bleeps and bloops and. Yeah, and that is that remains a pervasive impression. But as video games grow as an entertainment medium, it becomes more and more clear how how diverse musically, the musical scores created for video games actually are, and how much musicianship and production value are going into the creation of these musical scores. It’s really a quite difficult and and challenging to expand people’s perception when it hinges on that first impression from when they were a kid of what video game music is it video game music as a genre? It really isn’t isn’t correctly identified in terms of one particular musical style. It’s like saying film music is one particular style because it’s not. There’s a lot. There’s just such a plethora of different kinds of music created for film and for television, suiting the the nature of the projects themselves, the television shows, the films, whatever will serve the story and the narrative and and make the experience fun.
Winifred Phillips: [00:34:05] And the same is true for games. It is just as diverse. So that I think slowly but surely is is settling into the consciousness of people who think about what video game music is. We just have to be aware that that first impression from from childhood still carries a lot of weight, and it sometimes needs to be be corrected, but it’s not a difficult thing to do once you start looking at what’s happening now. And I think that as video games continue to pervade the culture like they’re doing now, and become more and more important, like the television series that are now coming out that are based on video games and are introducing non-gamers to the idea of rich and varied storytelling that originates from the video game world. This, in turn, illuminates people regarding what video game music is, because just its exposure is the best education, I think.
Mindy Peterson: [00:35:13] Yeah like that. Okay, second of three questions from Molly. She says. Another question could be about the unique challenges that come from writing music for a video game based on a previous game series, movie or other IP, rather than writing a score for a completely new title.
Winifred Phillips: [00:35:31] That’s an interesting question, and the answer to it is not, I think, what you might expect. It derives its its nature from the nature of video game development itself. Video games take a while to develop. They are very, very complicated, and they generally tend to have to build into their development cycle a fairly long schedule. So let’s say as an example, when I did the music for The Da Vinci Code video game, it was a tie in to the Ron Howard film starring Tom Hanks. So clearly there was going to be a score there. But I started work on the music for the video game long before the composer was hired to do the music for the film. It just was there. There isn’t a parallel world there in terms of one form of media informing the other. I had no idea what was going to happen musically with the score for The Da Vinci Code film. Yeah, so I just had I had to work from where I thought the music would best serve the game, and fortunately for that one, I was able to read the book too. And I had a lot to work from, and it was inspiring to to do that. And other projects like the Speed Racer video game, which was a tie in with the Wolkowsky film, so that that was another situation in which I had pretty much created all of the music for the game before the the composer for the film was hired, so I didn’t know what was going to happen musically for the film, and it gave me a lot of creative freedom.
Winifred Phillips: [00:37:11] There is one exception to that, though, and I would say, and it’s one of my most recent projects, the Jurassic World Primal Ops game. It was a tie in to the Jurassic World Dominion film that came out fairly. They recently. And of course, with a game like that, it’s a part of a franchise and that franchise has a very particular sound. So I knew there were expectations. I knew what the the orchestral texture felt like. There was a sense of atonality and exotic scales and clusters and a very punchy and and exciting and perilous. So I knew I was creating all of that. But at the same time, it’s its own unique, original intellectual exercise to create music that is within a tradition, but that also is unique to itself. So I created all original themes for Jurassic World Primal Ops, and the idea of repeating leitmotifs that would help players and guide them along the way while they’re hunting dinosaurs across North America. It was a fun project, and I was actually really proud of that one. It was recognized by the Society of Composers and Lyricists with a nomination in last year’s awards. So yeah, so that was yeah, it really meant a lot to me because I was well, I was really intimidated by that project. Such a long and wonderful history of of musical, of strength in the Jurassic Park Jurassic World franchise. And so I definitely wanted to live up to that. And it was it was amazing and really meaningful to me.
Mindy Peterson: [00:38:49] Yeah. Did John Williams do some of the composition for those movies?
Winifred Phillips: [00:38:52] Oh yes.
Mindy Peterson: [00:38:53] Okay. That’s what I thought. Yes, yes.
Winifred Phillips: [00:38:55] When whenever you’re going to do a project where there’s some sort of John Williams tradition, it’s it’s it’s very pretty high. It’s very intimidating. But but I also definitely wanted to express an original viewpoint. And John Williams was not the only composer. There was also Michael Giacchino and there were other composers. Don Davis did some of the work for the Jurassic Park franchise. So. And then there there’s the television series, and it has its own musical flavor. So, so. But it all ties together with a with a common texture. You do want to reflect the, the, the soul of the story. And I think everybody who’s creating music for a franchise wants to be true to that.
Mindy Peterson: [00:39:36] Sure. Okay. Last question from Molly. Molly said finally, you could ask her about her experiences as a player of video games herself, what sounds she gravitates towards when playing a game, and how playing might inform her further work as a composer.
Winifred Phillips: [00:39:53] That’s interesting. Yeah, I don’t get asked that very much when I was a good questions.
Mindy Peterson: [00:39:59] Molly.
Winifred Phillips: [00:40:00] Yeah. Oh, excellent. Excellent. When I was writing A Composer’s Guide to Game Music, one of the things I did was I looked at the. There is a one model of player types, personality types that cleave towards different play styles and where if are you an aggressive player or are you a wanderer? Are you? Are you a more of a management style player? And those sorts of personality types that really inform the kinds of games you like to play and the experiences you like to have? So that to me was really interesting because I was trying to sort of broaden my perspective on how we as composers can serve games and and meet the emotional needs of players coming from different perspectives and wanting different things from the games they play. But a part of that was me realizing that I’m a typical Wanderer player because I like to to roam through open world environments that give me lots of opportunities to to appreciate the artistry and beauty that’s being created by the development team, and to have a sort of personal relationship with the with the world that’s been created. And as a wanderer, I tend to experience atmospheric music much more fully than someone who is just charging through areas looking for the next fight, encounter, or the next puzzle to solve. Because I’m looking under every rock, essentially. And yeah, so I have a different emotional reaction to music.
Winifred Phillips: [00:41:39] I really appreciate when when the ambience is accomplished in a very subtle and beautiful way, when when it has a texture that feels very organic and responsive to what I’m doing and when when you can’t really sense the repetition that’s happening, even though certainly there there would be, but it’s so artfully created that you do not register it, but you instead, it just feels like it’s weaving itself into what you’re personally doing, and that that’s the kind of music that I tend to mentally encompass the most while I play, because I tend to to be a looky loo while I play and just check out. Everything. And that would be the the unique perspective that I would have otherwise. My experience would kind of reflect the way other people experience games in terms of how how combat music impacts you, how how puzzle solving music helps you to focus and concentrate or calms you down, or how user interface music helps to create a sense of the brand of the game and the identity of the experience you’re having so that you feel, feel excited to play. And all of those. I think I would share with pretty much everybody who plays. But a unique perspective, I think would come from the way I appreciate the music that accompanies you while you’re just free form exploring.
Mindy Peterson: [00:43:06] This conversation has been so informative, and it’s fascinating to hear you talk about the different styles of players in terms of if you’re a wanderer or a more managerial style. That’s really interesting. Never thought about that. Well, before I close things out with our coda, or rather, before you close things out with our coda, I want to hear the new and exciting project that you have going on. What are you up to these days?
Winifred Phillips: [00:43:33] Oh well thank you. I’m really excited about this one. I am creating original music for wizardry Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord, and. But this is a game with an incredible history. It’s developed by Digital Eclipse, but it’s a remake. It’s a 3D remake of a game that originally came out in 1981. Oh, wow. Yeah, it’s it’s such an important game to the history of role playing games as a whole. It essentially created the mechanics of computer role playing games that we experience today, and it is widely considered one of the finest role playing games ever created. So and this was the first game in that franchise of wizardry proving grounds of the Mad Overlord. Now, there was a score originally, but it was again an eight bit score. It was a very simple score, and my job is to both adapt some of the musical ideas that were in the original game, but also to create a lot of original musical content to flesh out the, the, the texture of the world. Because now we’re looking at a fully 3D environment that you get to explore, and the the monsters you’re fighting are have a lot of character and are really interesting. And instead of being more simply presented, it’s not as much a mechanical experience as it is a subjective adventure. So I get to take one of the most important games in the history of video game development, and I get to infuse my enthusiasm for what it accomplished at the time and for what this remake is accomplishing now. So that’s been amazing. Wow, I’m having such a good time.
Mindy Peterson: [00:45:16] Yeah, I can tell. Yeah, it sounds like an incredible project. When is this game going to be available?
Winifred Phillips: [00:45:21] That’s the best part. It is available right now. It’s an open access. So it’s early. Early access. It’s on steam. So if you if you search wizardry proving grounds of the Mad Overlord, you’ll come across it. And while it is still in development. So there’s there’s some placeholder elements and things like that. And they’re going to be assets that are going to come in as you play. Like there’ll be more music and more art and and things like that, but you also get to experience the growth of this game as a player. It’s kind of like an inside peek into the development process of this game.
Mindy Peterson: [00:45:57] Is this the first time it’s been done in that way?
Winifred Phillips: [00:45:59] Well, I think there have been early access games before, but the thing that’s beautiful, the thing that’s beautiful about Digital Eclipse is they’re essentially the Criterion Collection of video games. They’re they’re trying to preserve history in a really integral way to our understanding and appreciation for what video games are in our culture and what they can be in the future. So they’re they have a lot of dedication to being true to what the games originally were, while also giving them new life for a new audience. And it’s been amazing working with them.
Mindy Peterson: [00:46:36] Wow, sounds like an incredible experience. Well, as you know, whenever I’d ask all my guests to close out our conversation with a musical ending a coda by sharing a song or story about a moment that music enhanced your life. Do you have a song or story that you can share with us today as we close?
Winifred Phillips: [00:46:55] Yeah, I think so. This is about a project that I worked on with the the Sony Europe team. This was LittleBigPlanet two. It was the first Little Big Planet project I worked on, so I was very nervous. It was exciting to work with this team. They’re just an amazing creative bunch of geniuses, very eclectic and and fantastic in terms of their creativity and encouraged lots of eccentric approaches from. All of the artists involved in creating these games. So I was tasked with creating music for a level that was going to be called Victoria’s Lab. And Victoria was supposed to be sort of a steampunk character who was a little crazy, and she had a scientific laboratory full of weird inventions, and she was supposed to be a like, kind of almost a disconcerting figure. So I was supposed to create very eccentric music that would reflect that, but also with the the joyous qualities that are inherent in the LittleBigPlanet games as a whole. I mean, you are playing as a little Sackboy character, running around in a sort of make believe world, and so you have to definitely reflect that joyous, fun and and creative sense of play. So when I created the interactive music for Victoria’s Lab, I infused into it a lot of really eccentric elements like a calliope and beatboxing and and really thrashy guitar and plucked strings and a women’s choir doing nonsense syllables and lots of of wild sound design that that that felt eclectic and like toys and, and all sorts of things like that.
Winifred Phillips: [00:48:40] Punched up with a large orchestra for when you are. You would be fighting big enemies during this level, and it just a combination of things that you would never hear together, but all sort of mashed in with each other. And that was an amazing experience. I really loved doing it, but I think the thing that was the most meaningful about it to me was after I’d turned the music in and and they’d implemented it into the game, I found out that they went back to the Victoria’s lab level and they completely redesigned it. Now the level was full of of teacups and cupcakes and and there was icing dripping from the walls, and there were roses everywhere. I mean, Victoria was still a crazy character and she still had all of her weird inventions, but now she was also a baker, and her world was full of cookies. And and it was just it was an amazing thing. And the team let me know that they had revised the level because of the music I’d submitted, which it that’s just not something that happens very rarely.
Mindy Peterson: [00:49:46] Inspired by your music, that it caused some redesigns to that level?
Winifred Phillips: [00:49:52] It’s very much in the philosophy of their team, the idea of rolling with what where creative inspiration will strike and and seizing upon that, that light bulb moment. It’s a very much a part of the way they create games. So I feel like I was able to sort of spark an extra light for that level, that which is something that sometimes we don’t get to do as game composers. The way game music fits into the overall design schedule and development schedule, it’s harder to be a part of that blue sky phase where you’re having big ideas and thinking at your most ambitiously, yeah, but to have that happen, it really made me feel like I was a part of that creative process. And so that was an amazing memory for me.
Transcribed by Sonix.ai