Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.
Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson and this is Enhance Life with Music, where we explore the ways music makes our lives better. Ryan Dusick is the founding drummer of Maroon 5 and is now an associate marriage and family therapist, a mental health coach, and the author of the book “Harder to Breathe: A Memoir of Making Maroon 5, Losing It All, and Finding Recovery.” Ryan went from being the drummer for the world’s hottest rock band, to being forced out of music by physical and mental health challenges. He spent a decade suffering from depression, crippling anxiety and substance abuse before beginning a journey of recovery in 2016. Ryan wrote his book in hopes of helping others who might see themselves in his personal struggles. He now works as a mental health professional and advocate, spreading the message that recovery is possible along with a new life path full of meaning, purpose and fulfillment. Welcome to Enhance Life with Music, Ryan.
Ryan Dusick: [00:01:01] Hi Mindy, thank you so much for having me on.
Mindy Peterson: [00:01:04] My pleasure. Great to have you here. Let’s start out talking about your book. I loved your book. It was incredibly raw and honest and vulnerable. You kick it off with a prologue that tells the story of you being kicked out of Maroon 5. And it was just heart wrenching to to read that. But I’m glad you put it where you did, because the further I got in the book and really understood the history that you had with these band mates and just everything that you went through with them, I kept thinking back to that prologue and thinking, the further I get in this book, the more painful it would be to read that account. And Adam Levine actually mentions in the foreword, I think that telling you that you are out of the band was the hardest. It’s still the hardest thing that he’s ever had to do in his life. And you lived it. The the book tells a lot about how you and your bandmates went from being high school friends, forming this band in your parents garage, to how the band became kind of the world’s hottest band rock band with multi-platinum album, multiple hit songs, two Grammy Awards, 20 million albums sold, and anyone who wants to read more about that will really enjoy that portion of the book. It’s really fascinating, but I want in our conversation to talk about what happened next. Can you explain just a little bit of the challenges that you are facing around the time when it seemed like all of your band’s dreams were coming true?
Ryan Dusick: [00:02:39] Yeah. Well, first off, thank you for the kind words. And, you know, uh, I think you said raw, honest and vulnerable. Um, those were things that I tried really hard to do in the writing of the book, because I knew that, uh, if people were going to relate to the things that I struggled with, I had to be really, really very honest and authentic about what I went through. Otherwise, what was the point? You know, I mean, I think the people, people connect when you when you get the sense that that somebody is being authentic and we need more of that in the stories that we hear. And so for me, um, you know, it was our dreams were coming true. You know, we were it was the moment in our life that we’d been working toward for a decade at that point, all the way from starting the band in my in my parents garage and, uh, you know, playing around town here in L.A. all the way up to a decade later to playing on the biggest stages in the world, you know, headlining arenas and playing on The Tonight Show and Saturday Night Live and, uh, touring the world.
Ryan Dusick: [00:03:41] So it was everything that we had dreamed of. And in some ways, it was as exciting as you would imagine. We were doing a lot of things that, um, were only fantasies up until that point. But privately, for me, individually, I was I was starting to break down in ways that I didn’t even fully understand at the time. Uh, at the time, I felt physical pain in my shoulder. I felt the drumming was getting harder and that I was getting physically exhausted and fatigued because we’d been on the road at that point for a couple of years. You don’t realize when a when an album blows up and you have an artist that breaks through in the way that we did around 2003 for how much work has gone into it up until that point. I mean, you hear the overnight success stories, and that’s what people talked about with us, especially when we won our Grammy in 2004 or 5 for Best New Artist. It was like, you know, the best new artist that took over a decade to to get there.
Mindy Peterson: [00:04:38] Yeah. You point that out in your book. It’s like Best New Artist. We’ve been at this for ten years.
Ryan Dusick: [00:04:43] Right? Exactly. So, uh, in 2002 and three, the first two years that we were promoting the album Songs About Jane, we played over 500 shows just in those two years alone. And that’s not including, you know, all the the promo and the travel and. The the photo shoots, video shoots, interviews. Meet and greets. Going in and playing acoustic shows in the radio station or in a record store. It was nonstop. I mean, there were no breaks that most we had one day off every couple of weeks, and that was a travel day. You know, we had a long drive, a 14 hour drive or something like that and or a flight day or whatever. So, uh, that was what life looked like. And it was very exciting, everything that we were doing. But it was very fatiguing. And for somebody like me who was already somebody who cared a lot, carried a lot of internal pressure. I was a perfectionist by nature. I was somebody who struggled with anxiety, and I hadn’t even really reckoned with it because it wasn’t something that I it was it wasn’t overt anxiety, it was internal. I don’t think anyone would have noticed it externally at that point. And and it.
Mindy Peterson: [00:05:49] Comes up several times in the book. Adam mentions this. I think in the book you do that you were always the adult in the room, right? And there’s, you know, and I could totally picture that person. I mean, I can relate to that personality being the responsible one. Yeah.
Ryan Dusick: [00:06:03] I was very together and very responsible. I was the oldest guy in the group. And when we started the band, I was 16 and I was the only one with a car, my hand-me-down, uh, Jeep Wagoneer, which was falling apart on the highway. But, uh, we all piled in there and I, you know, we put all the gear in the back and went to our gigs and everything, and I was the one. Yeah, I was the one who was on top of everything. If you from, you know, from the outside, if you looked at us, I was the one who had it all together. Uh, but in the course of being on the road for that long and somebody who put a lot of pressure on myself now, now, that was meeting up with external pressure. And the intersection of those two things was kind of a breaking point for me, because it’s one thing when you’re playing once a month on stage in front of 200 of your friends and family, and you get all excited. It doesn’t. I never really had stage fright. I just thought of it as excitement. You know, you have an adrenaline rush that goes all day until you get on stage. And, um, and it was a lot of fun. But now you’re doing that every single day, and all of the adrenaline that goes with that and me wanting to be perfect and do everything exactly right and be my most dynamic self and but I was I was an introvert by nature. I was somebody who needed my downtime and needed to recuperate. And I also was somebody who was a self-taught drummer. And so there were some skill sets that were lacking in terms of just the fundamentals, which made it more taxing for me. Uh, and also contributed to what I was starting to experience, which was a lot of self-doubt and imposter syndrome.
Mindy Peterson: [00:07:41] And I’m just going to jump in real quick because that point that you just mentioned as a piano teacher for years and years, that jumped out at me like, oh my goodness, I want students to hear this. That proper technique is really important. Even when you’re the drummer in Maroon 5. Like, proper technique would have really helped you out in terms of having more stamina and more strength and endurance for playing more and longer. So when I saw that, I’m like, oh, good point for, you know, music teachers to point out to their students technique is important.
Ryan Dusick: [00:08:15] Absolutely. And and it would have made a huge difference. I didn’t want to hear that when I was a kid and just wanted to do things my way. Um, and there is a trade off between the two. I think that as a as a creative person, I think that it it did help me find my own style and sound. The fact that I didn’t know the right way, the quote unquote right way of doing it, I was just making it up as I was going along and emulating the things that I thought were cool, uh, without any sort of standards of what, uh, what perfection was to anyone else other than me. Sure. Um, so in that regard, I think that it helped develop my own individual style and, uh, way of contributing something creative to our sound. But but the downside is that, uh, my playing was not efficient. My technique was was definitely lacking the sticking technique. So I was essentially an athletic guy that was, uh, pounding out every beat like I was, you know, throwing hammers at the drums.
Mindy Peterson: [00:09:20] Sure, that technique and form would have been a really helpful tool to have in your tool set when you needed it.
Ryan Dusick: [00:09:26] Right. And so it was it was a combination of a lot of different factors. There was the physical element where I had these injuries. I had a pre-existing injury as a pitcher. I played baseball growing up in my shoulder.
Mindy Peterson: [00:09:37] Prodigy level pitcher.
Ryan Dusick: [00:09:39] Yeah. When I was like 12 years old, I was a champion in Little League and we were playing in regional, regional tournaments and everything. And, you know, everyone was saying, I’m going to be pitching for the Dodgers someday. And, uh, I believe that at the time and maybe in another universe that would have happened. But.
Mindy Peterson: [00:09:55] Well, yeah, you had sort of an overuse injury caused by. I poor coaching. It sounded like.
Ryan Dusick: [00:10:02] Yeah, in those days we weren’t counting, uh, pitches. And I did have a few coaches that were not too kind. And I had, um, some problems with, with overuse and my and my shoulder and elbow breaking down at that time. So I had that pre-existing injury. Um, I didn’t have great technique to, to be able to play with endurance and, and control without exerting myself a lot. And then I had this, this other psychological element, which was, you know, the insecurities that I carried, the the anxieties about being perfect. It sort of manifested in being obsessive compulsive about the drums. And you put that all together and then you and then you all of a sudden. You’ve been on the road for two years, playing every single day under that kind of strain, and now you’re on the biggest stage in the world, in front of millions of people, watching you every day and feeling it’s no longer just fun and expression the way that it had been when we started the band. It’s now expectation.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:05] Sure, yeah.
Ryan Dusick: [00:11:06] Not just our expectations, but external expectations. The world’s expectations. Our record label, our our management, our our touring promotion team. Like a lot of. That the systems involved with a career at that point are much larger than when you’re playing out of your parent’s garage. So. So now all this external pressure meeting up with the internal pressure in a way that it just became an overload, to the point where I really hit a wall and essentially had a breakdown.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:36] Yeah, well, the human body doesn’t recognize the difference necessarily between, quote, good stress and negative stress. Stress is stress. And you kind of say in the book, you feel a little bit odd about saying that it was a traumatic experience or it was a type of trauma, but it is. I mean, it’s nonstop high stress on mind, body and spirit for extended periods of time years. And you did ask for a break. You asked for help, you explained what you were going through, and the manager just sort of discounted it and was like, hey, at this point you need to say yes to everything. And that was the constant message that you were getting. And like you said, there’s stress that comes with success and people don’t think of living the rock star lifestyle as being stressful. But it is, you know, there’s like you said, the high expectations. The nonstop photo shoots, shows, publicity, traveling, fan interviews, signing your autograph. You know, it’s just constant. One other thing that I just want to point out is you mentioned in your book a bit of I hadn’t turned this turn before, but Manorexia and at the time the fashion was sort of this boyish waif type look. And you had photographers tell you you looked too healthy and like, kind of slouched down and you need to be more skinny. And you say in the book, you just can only imagine what it’s like for women and girls who are under even more pressure to be skinny and look perfect all the time. So yeah, you have all of this stress. You’re asking for a break. It’s just being discounted. Um, has any of that changed in the last, what, ten or not even ten years since then, in terms of how managers approach artists and recognizing a need for a more healthy balance in their lifestyle? Because the lifestyle you describe is just inherently unbalanced and unhealthy.
Ryan Dusick: [00:13:44] I think that a lot has changed or is at least starting to change. Um, you know, I’m not in the middle of that world anymore, but I am. I have sort of gotten pulled back in, you know, because I wrote this book about my experience in the music industry. So I’ve been, uh, doing a lot of, you know, interviews and other things that are related to the music world, which which I’m grateful for because I wish that 20 years ago, when, you know, we were on the road really intensely for the first time, that some of these things existed, that there were voices and there was a public discourse around mental health and around physical wellness for performers. I mean, it’s, as you said, mind, body and spirit. Um, you can’t neglect any one of them, right? Otherwise all of them suffer. And from afar at least, uh, looking at what’s changing, I think you’re seeing more stories and more advocacy, which is wonderful. Um, in terms of the bottom line and how these, these industries function on a day to day basis, I don’t know how much it’s realistically changed yet, but I think that there is more of an awareness, and I think that there is a willingness and at least a an acknowledgment that, look, if you’re just thinking about the bottom line, if you’re just putting these artists out on the road, people in this situation were historically we’ve seen one after another.
Ryan Dusick: [00:15:03] People break down and end up with situations where they have substance abuse problems or a mental health crisis, you know, outcomes that can be not just tragic in terms of your career, but in terms of your life and well-being. Um, I think there’s at least an acknowledgment that nobody is profiting from that outcome. Right. Okay. Um, if you’re building a business, you want to build a sustainable business, and that requires, you know, all the moving parts to be healthy and working. And if your artist is, uh, has to cancel the tour because, you know, they’re having a breakdown that’s going to hurt your bottom line a lot this quarter and this year. But if that’s what’s needed to maintain a career, then you have to think in terms of the long terme. Long terme.
Mindy Peterson: [00:15:49] Yeah. Yeah for sure. So you had these overuse injuries. So you had some of these other factors mental, emotional, psychological kind of all feeding in to create a downward spiral which you go into quite a bit in your book. Uh, it got to the point where you couldn’t physically play the way you needed to, which led to you leaving the band. It started out as sort of the idea was that would be. And it turned into something that was permanent. And the downward spiral kind of accelerated at that point, possibly just with the loss of identity. I mean, that was the loss of your social life. It was who you were. You didn’t necessarily have anything in mind to transition into in terms of another career. And it was kind of like, what am I going to do? Anything I do at this point is going to be just just see, just pale in comparison to what you had already done. So you had, what, about ten years where you really struggled a lot with substance abuse and depression and anxiety? Tell us just a little bit about how you went from that time period to discovering and kind of kicking off the career path that you’re on now?
Ryan Dusick: [00:17:02] Well, it was you know, it was totally devastating to have to walk away from, uh, not just the career that I had built over a decade, but, you know, my whole life and my whole identity. And, uh, I think most artists can relate to this. You know, your art becomes your entire world, right? Um, it’s your self-definition. It’s the thing that you live for. Um, and also when you’re in a in a on a team like that in a band, it’s your whole social world. It’s your sense of connection and belonging. Uh, so in every sense, in a relational capacity, in a purpose and meaning capacity and just everything that was a part of my self-definition was all wrapped up in being a member of that band. So, um, so I really struggled with the loss of that. It was really a grieving process, I think, that I had to go through, and I went through all the stages, you know, of the depression, the anger, the bargaining and the substance abuse. You know, alcohol in particular was was one of the ways in which I coped, when, of course, it made everything worse. And I had to deal with, uh, everything that came with that. And my anxiety got worse and worse. But it was, um, about a decade of struggle before I kind of hit a spiritual bottom where I felt, I’m just going.
Mindy Peterson: [00:18:20] To interject real quick to a pretty significant component that I left out is you were going to doctor after doctor after doctor during this time, trying to figure out what was going on and fix it and just weren’t getting the answers that you needed. It’s like one doctor. You’d be referred to one specialist who would be addressing a very narrow sliver of symptoms and prescribe maybe a hydrocortisone shot, or give you this diagnosis that just there wasn’t something that was all encompassing to fix everything. And that was incredibly discouraging and frustrating, too.
Ryan Dusick: [00:18:57] It was it was absolutely confounding because I knew there was something bigger going on. I just couldn’t really I didn’t have the vocabulary or the education to understand what it was. And what was worse is that none of the doctors or therapists or professionals of any kind were able to put their finger on what that was. I mean, they were able to look under a microscope, you know, do an MRI and see that there was inflammation in my shoulder that I had, you know, chronic tendonitis or tendinosis. And, and they were able to do a nerve conduction study and see that I had slowing of the nerves in my right arm. And, you know, anyone who was looking at me could see that I was depressed and that I was, you know, there’s a lot of stuff going on where you go to one doctor and they give you one diagnosis. But yeah, I didn’t feel like there was a holistic approach to it. I think that I’ll oftentimes, you know, the wonderful thing about Western medicine is how specialized it can be if you have a brain tumor, there’s somebody who’s done a thousand operations on that very specific thing and can go in and take that tumor out.
Ryan Dusick: [00:19:54] And that’s that’s why we do things the way that we do is so specialized. But there’s a downside to everything, right? There’s pros and cons. And the downside is sometimes you miss the forest for the trees. Right. Absolutely. And how everything is integrated. And in particular I’ve just seen a disconnect between the medical world and the mental health aspect and seeing how just how connected the mind and body. And then that third element of the spirit, which is a whole other conversation. Right? You know, the interplay of all those things and how important it is to see, um, how those things are all related. That was a big part of what I went through. And and you also, you mentioned earlier trauma, you know, that was the other aspect. I had a hard time looking at what happened as trauma, because I had reserved that word for things like war zones and childhood abuse and, um, you know, sexual abuse, those kinds of things.
Mindy Peterson: [00:20:48] Things that are inherently negative.
Ryan Dusick: [00:20:51] Yeah. Really. Like life and death, life changing in a, in a physical way, those types of traumas that we relate to that word. But for me, it was kind of a slow moving trauma. It was a breakdown that was slow and steady. And over time, you apply enough pressure and stress to a human being. And eventually there’s a breaking point. Right. And and when I when I look back and I recognize that happened on stage for me in front of the world over a long period of time, night after night, until I finally passed over that threshold, that my nervous system essentially reacted the same way that anyone who’s been through a trauma, their nervous system would react. You become hypervigilant. You’re having a reaction where you’re seeing this thing, this stimulus, as a threat, even if it’s not, you know, you can’t blame somebody who’s been in a war zone and there’s been bombs going off around them that they hear a car backfire, and immediately they’re back in that place where my life is in danger. Right. And that’s the bodily reaction their nervous system is having. That’s essentially what happened with me, with the drums. My body was just like, this is going to kill you. Uh, you need to get out of there. And so that’s why it wasn’t allowing me to coordinate to play the drums anymore. And so not understanding that at the time and not being able to get a proper, you know, description or diagnosis of what that it was that I was experiencing made it that much more confounding for me because. I just felt like I was I was defective in some way.
Ryan Dusick: [00:22:16] I felt like I was a failure. And those were the kind of ruminations that I had been having that led up to that point. And then when it was kind of confirmed by the fact that I couldn’t play anymore and I had to walk away from that career, that’s where the downward spiral really took place, because I didn’t I didn’t have any sense of of self definition or self worth at that point. And my self esteem was just kind of going down and down. And so of course self-medicating didn’t, didn’t help. And so that’s how the downward spiral happens. But but the wonderful thing and I’ve learned this as a professional and as an individual who’s gone through recovery, um, is that we talk about the downward spiral a lot, but there’s also such a thing as an upward spiral, right. If you can go downward and the behaviors and the thoughts and the physical element can all feed on themselves and bring you down further and further, the opposite is true when you start bringing in positive elements, whether it be just behavioral or in terms of the cognitive element or the emotional element or the spiritual element. When you start creating that upward spiral, it does, at a certain point, start to feed on itself the same way that the downward spiral can. And that was true for me. Once I finally was able to find closure on that painful chapter of my life and move into this other chapter that was ultimately really uplifting and fulfilling.
Mindy Peterson: [00:23:37] Mhm. Well, that’s a really encouraging thought and just a reframing of it. And speaking of reframing, you sort of were able to reframe your story of tragic ending of your music career into a happy ending. And it sort of came about, I think you ended up at Betty Ford for rehab, and at some point you were working with a therapist who asked you kind of a haunting question. Is there anything you can see yourself doing that provides a sense of purpose in your life? Tell us about that and how that sort of fed into you, uh, being on the path you’re on now?
Ryan Dusick: [00:24:15] Yeah, that was a life changing moment. And it’s, it’s it’s interesting to think now because at the time I looked at this psychiatrist, uh, with whom I spent two, two hour sessions in the first week that I was at Betty Ford, uh, and I actually looked at his notes when I checked out. They allowed me to see all of the notes that the professionals had had, uh, had written up. And it was so amazing, even just two months into my recovery, to read his notes about me and our first session. What a mess I was.
Mindy Peterson: [00:24:45] Oh, really?
Ryan Dusick: [00:24:47] Nothing. I was saying it made any sense and I was just totally, you know, in the insanity of addiction at that point. But, but, but, you know, he, he really took his time with me and, and. You know, in my memory, he was some kind of wizard who was just pulling out all of these insights from me, just asking me these questions and and working this magic with me. Within a matter of weeks. Changing my whole perspective and mindset on life. Um, but now kind of looking back on it, I think that I realized I was just in that moment in my life where I was ready to hear certain things and I was ready to actually take action, to change certain things about the way I’d been going about my life and thinking. And so it was a profound intersection of the right thing at the right time. Um, and I’m sure he’s a great clinician. Um, but I think it was probably a combination of those things. And so essentially, I don’t know, it was probably a few weeks, maybe a month into recovery. And I thought I was doing great. You know, I was getting along with all the guys in the, in the dorm, and I was becoming one of the leaders who was running the groups and really getting, you know, just invested in the recovery process and enjoying it.
Ryan Dusick: [00:25:58] And he asked me one day, just very matter of factly, what do you think your purpose is? And I was taken aback because I was like, isn’t the fact that I’m just getting sober enough? Like it sounded to me like it was asking me for the meaning of life? I was like, now I need to figure out the meaning of life already. I’m just getting a grasp on not drinking. That’s it’s hard enough, you know? Um, and and I didn’t have an answer for him. He said, you know, what do you think gives your life purpose? And I said, well, I think at one point music was that, um, and maybe that’s still my sense of purpose. Maybe I’ll continue to work in some capacity in music. Um, and there was just kind of a question mark at the end of those statements and he said, okay, that’s great. Um, but you’re going to be going home in a couple of weeks. And what are you exactly going to be going home to? What what what are you going to be waking up each morning, uh, to and thinking to yourself, this is my purpose for today. And I really couldn’t answer that question. I was like, well, I have cats that I love, I have a girlfriend, I have a family. I mean, those are meaningful things. But it took me a while to answer that question.
Ryan Dusick: [00:27:13] But I think him asking that and having me think about it in those terms, uh, was really, really an important part of the process. And if you, you know, there’s a chapter in the book, Connection and Purpose, you know, that whole that whole chapter about my experience at Betty Ford, I call it connection and purpose, because the first thing that happened in recovery was finding connection, you know, first and foremost with with the recovery community. But that was something that I’d been lacking so greatly in my addiction because addiction is a very isolating experience. You know, the more the deeper you get into it, the more disconnected you are from, uh, from life and from the people in your life and from the things that that create meaning and purpose. So it was the step of finding some form of connection, feeling connected to life again and to other human beings in the process. That allowed me to start to discover new meaning and new purpose, and recognize that the things that I had thought were my purpose were at that point in my life. But that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily always the same thing that because those things were gone, that I could not have meaning and purpose in my life again. And I think what dawned on me one day was that I had been sitting around, you know, feeling so sorry for myself for a long time after leaving the band, that I was just kind of either I had either resigned myself to the fact or to the idea that I would never have that kind of connection and purpose in my life again, and was just going to have to get through the rest of what was left of my life without that or that, you know, if there was connection and if there was purpose in my life, that it was something that the universe or God ordains on you, you know, that you you wake up one day and all of a sudden, uh, the, the heavens part and somebody tells you, here’s your purpose, you know, or that I think that a lot of people go through life thinking like, well, I don’t have any incredible talent or I’m not, you know, I’m not a I’m not a rock star.
Ryan Dusick: [00:29:14] I’m not a movie star. I’m not a CEO. What is my purpose if I’m not any of those things? And the reality that, that, that I was able to thankfully, finally discover was that meaning and purpose is relative. And it’s and it’s not something that necessarily anyone else can give you is something that you can choose and create for yourself simply by deciding what matters to you, what you value, and by investing yourself in that thing.
Ryan Dusick: [00:29:41] You know, I’ve certainly it’s wonderful if you have a natural talent or something, a proclivity towards something that gives you a sense of flow and connection. And that’s a good starting point to, you know, like for me, writing the book was the most connecting flow experience that I’ve had since I left the band, because I’m a creative person and I will always be a creative person. And so not being able to do that with the drums and the band, uh, being able to write and craft a narrative from start to finish, that was a really, you know, a really creative and meaningful, purposeful experience for me. Um, so I know that that’s something that will be connected to everything I do, that that brings fulfillment to my life is that sense of creativity and flow. But it’s different for everyone, and it doesn’t have to be something that you necessarily have great talent at. It doesn’t have to be something that you thought you had a connection to when you were eight years old, I think. I mean, I went back to school in my 40s to become a therapist. I never in my life thought I was going to be a therapist, or that I was going to work in the mental health field. I mean, if you had told me that ten years ago, I would have laughed.
Mindy Peterson: [00:30:46] I would have thought, you know.
Ryan Dusick: [00:30:48] And then I find myself writing this book and in this new on this new mission of advocacy and talking about these things as a speaker and as a public figure in this way. And that’s brought all, all kinds of new purpose and therefore meaning and fulfillment in my life that, um, you know, when I was struggling, I couldn’t see because I wasn’t able to have that mindset of taking on a new challenge and just investing myself in something and creating purpose.
Mindy Peterson: [00:31:18] Yeah, I love that word connection. And you, you’ve been using it a lot in our conversation and you use it a lot in the book. You have that chapter that has is on connection, and you talk in the book about the relationship between connectivity, connection and music and how music is such a powerful connector and the relationship you see between connection and spirituality, which is really fascinating to how you go into that in the book. In my day job, I work a lot with college music departments, music department, faculty, and mental health is a huge issue for the young people that they work with and just the demographic of young people college students, high school students. Uh, what recommendation, recommendation do you have for these educators as they shape the next generation of creatives? Uh, as so that could be as they’re working with students who may be struggling now as they prepare students for stressors that are part of being performers, part of being on tour, part of experiencing high success or high failure. Just working in the the music business. Do you have any recommendations for these educators as they’re working with these kids?
Ryan Dusick: [00:32:33] Well, I was really fortunate to be able to go, uh, in the spring to NYU and speak to a couple classes there, uh, in the music department. Uh, music industry department, uh, about this very thing because, uh, a great, uh, professor there named, uh, professor Jerry del Colliano, uh, invited me and he, he, you know, he noticed that there had been a real uptick since the pandemic in, uh, anxiety and other mental health issues in his students and that, you know, these kids were really struggling. Um, I’m actually going to USC this month to do the same thing with another professor there. So that’s or.
Mindy Peterson: [00:33:10] Either of those recorded or will they be recorded and available for others?
Ryan Dusick: [00:33:15] Uh, no. I you know, a friend of mine shot some stuff on her phone, but that’s about it.
Mindy Peterson: [00:33:18] Okay.
Ryan Dusick: [00:33:19] Maybe at USC, I should consider maybe bringing in something. That would be a cool idea. Yeah, that’s thank you for that’s.
Mindy Peterson: [00:33:28] If you if you record it, let me know, because I know a lot of faculty members who would be very interested in that.
Ryan Dusick: [00:33:34] Yeah. Well it’s really fulfilling, you know, to be able to, to go in. I didn’t have an education in music, certainly not in the music industry and certainly not in the mental health aspect of the music industry. I had to learn all that, uh, on the job, you know.
Mindy Peterson: [00:33:48] School of hard knocks.
Ryan Dusick: [00:33:50] Right. And sometimes really have to learn it the hard way. And unfortunately, we’re able to, uh, you know, reach out to young people now in a way that it wasn’t available to me when I was coming up. Um, and, you know, I think that that look, we’re dealing with a mental health epidemic, uh, in general in the general population, uh, just the state of the world, and certainly since the pandemic has changed a lot of things for us. Um, I’m seeing it in my clients, you know, creative people by nature. It’s a it’s a chicken or the egg thing, but they do tend to have a higher incidence of mental health issues and suicide and things like that, and substance abuse as well. And, you know, I think that by by trade, you know, people that go into creative fields do tend to be people that are seeking some kind of outlet, some kind of expression for something that they’re dealing with internally. And, and it’s a it’s another one of those wonderful sort of paradox where there’s pros and cons and, you know, this, this beautiful flower of a person who can have all this talent and all this to offer humanity in terms of something that is their expression and their art, um, also comes with a real sensitivity that can be vulnerable to certain things. And then you put that person in the context of a life and a profession that can be challenging in ways that other professions aren’t to that degree. And, uh, and you end up with that perfect storm that I ended up with where you see people breaking down.
Ryan Dusick: [00:35:20] And so I think that for, you know, the question of, of educators or people that are trying to help people that are either, you know, struggling now or may have those issues in the future is to be, first of all, aware and mindful of those realities. I think that if you wait until somebody is really struggling, it’s already a little too late, right? I mean, when somebody is in the position where they’re having a breakdown on the road or working in the industry, they’re going to have to go through the kind of the things that I went through and trying to overcome that, and I was one of the fortunate ones, of course, you know, to have find the help that I did and and to be able to find recovery and find a new life, uh, it certainly is a lot easier if you can start earlier on and instill healthier habits that are going to help you cope with some of those things, because look at it, weather, certainly a touring professional, that’s a very unusual lifestyle, right? Um, that most people don’t live their life like that. It’s a circus lifestyle. And there’s a lot that comes with that. That means that the demands of your life dictate that you have to be that much more mindful of your self-care. We all need to be mindful of self-care, right? I mean, every human on this planet in the modern world has to think very mindfully of how they’re they’re taking care of the basic elements of their physical well-being, their mental well-being, and their spiritual well-being.
Ryan Dusick: [00:36:39] If they want to function at their best and and prevent the kind of outcomes that can happen, I think that the tendency tends to be it has been historically that this is an odd lifestyle and not just touring. I mean, people working in in industries that are that are different than, than your average 9 to 5 job can have a similar outcome. I think that that historically we look at it like, well, these these are. Different kinds of people, and this is a different kind of life. And the normal rules don’t apply. And so when you’re under stress, you just blow off steam. And the ways we do in this world, you go out and you party. You do the things that that rock stars do or that, you know, an executive at a music record label does, you know, it’s a different kind of animal. And you think, well, that’s normal for that context. And you get by however you get by. But the reality is you’re giving yourself a double, a double whammy in that instance, because the demands and the pressures you’re under are greater. The ways in which your life is lacking structure normal things that create structure and give you just self-care without having to really try. I mean, most people, they have to get up at a certain point every day and go to work for a 9 to 5 job, and they have a certain flow to their life where they see the same people every day, and there’s a certain amount of relational regularity to that.
Mindy Peterson: [00:37:58] And those people also have to get up at a certain time the next morning. So they’re probably going to bed at a certain time.
Ryan Dusick: [00:38:05] Yeah. Their sleep is already kind of regulated for them. If as long as you’re not doing anything too crazy and you’re and you know, the hours of the day when you eat, you know, and, and, and the hours of the week that you have free, you know, you have a working week and a weekend and you have work time and play time. There’s just inherent structure in that lifestyle that somebody in a creative industry might not have. So now you have somebody who might be already vulnerable to those things. You put them in a life that has less structure and less built into it to create those natural elements of self-care. Uh, I think that it just requires that much more vigilance in terms of really advocating for yourself, because nobody else is going to do it for you, you know? Um, yeah. And and if I had gone into that lifestyle, you know, realizing, look, the demands on me are going to be much like a professional athlete, like I have to be getting up on a daily basis and performing at a level that most people aren’t asked to perform. Being on stage under those lights and under those pressures. Um, if I’m feeling the stress of that, and then my answer to it at the end of the week is to get wasted and, you know, have a big blowout and not sleep and then try to start the next week.
Mindy Peterson: [00:39:17] And to restrict calories so that you’re thinner and less healthy looking, as the photographers were asking you to do.
Ryan Dusick: [00:39:24] I mean, think about that. Restricted calories, underweight, overworked, using alcohol to as a as a coping mechanism, not expressing, uh, what’s going on internally, not opening up and having an outlet to talk about what’s going on inside. You know, all of those things feed on each other in that downward spiral. So it’s it’s changing each of those elements one by one. They’re behavioral changes that are very simple behavioral changes, you know, prioritizing sleep. If you don’t have as much time for sleep, then the time that you do have for sleep becomes that much more essential that you prioritize that, uh, and rest and get your recuperation where you can get it. Prioritizing healthy diet, um, getting exercise when you can, you know, that’s those are the just the that’s the very lowest level of the hierarchy of needs, right? Our physical needs starting there is a good a good place. Uh, but going up from there, I mean, we’re all human beings. At the end of the day, even if you’re a very special human being who is capable of living that life and being a really dynamic performer and personality, you still have your threshold as to what’s going to be too much and what’s going to be send you over the limit into a place of breakdown. And so being mindful of that and recognizing that we do have other needs than just nourishment, we have relational needs. You know, that sense of connection that comes with feeling seen and understood by another human being and feeling that we’re connected to something larger than ourselves.
Ryan Dusick: [00:40:53] Because that’s the other thing that can be a whether you’re a performer or a or a CEO, it’s very easy to get wrapped up in that ego trip. And once you’re in that place where you think the world revolves around me and my needs, you’ve lost that sense of connection. You know, connection and spirituality is all about feeling like you’re connected to something larger than yourself. And it doesn’t matter what that is. You can be a religious person and believe in God, or you can just be a sort of, uh, person who feels their connection to the universe and nature. And it can be as simple as just communing with with your pet or with another human being or with a community of some kind. Uh, these things are just as important as the nourishment we get from the food that we eat and the sleep that we need. And so, uh, and feeding our mind, our mind, body and spirit all need to be nourished. Now, how do you instill this in a young person who probably doesn’t want to hear all that and doesn’t want to think? I have to be so mindful of my self-care. You know who in their college years is is, you know, on top of all of those things and the healthiest way, most people are just trying to figure out how to get through their day.
Mindy Peterson: [00:42:03] Well, one thing I hear you saying is an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and it’s more important to teach students to be self-aware and recognize when they’re kind of approaching. I don’t want to say hitting a wall, but when they when they have needs and need to make adjustments and tweaks, that’s more important to teach than to teach other educators on how to spot warning signals. Because if you’re spotting word, it’s great to spot warning signs and be aware of what to watch for. But like you mentioned, once those signs are present and obvious to other people, it may be too late. Much better to teach students how to be self-aware and see those signs in themselves. And the other piece of that, too, is it’s sort of like that, um, you’re you’re teaching someone to fish rather than feeding them a meal. If you can teach them to be self aware and to regulate themselves and recognize as when they’re getting too close to a boundary and they need to adjust it, then that’s really helping them take care of themselves and advocate for themselves for the rest of their lives, rather than depending on teachers to spot signs of burnout and reign them in.
Ryan Dusick: [00:43:17] Right, creating those habits early and allowing somebody to have access to the kind of information that they can, they can be their own advocate, you know? But I think also, you know, it’s about creating a culture in which people feel the the ability to speak up and to advocate for themselves. I think that historically, especially for for boys and men, the culture of of, you know, just toughing it out and, and just pushing through and trying harder and buckling down to get to the next stop, um, can be really toxic, you know, and so the willingness to, to be vulnerable, the willingness to, to say I’m not okay and to ask for help, those are things that are both individual and systemic. You know, I think that we need to be advocating for young people in terms of creating a culture in which it’s okay to speak up. And I think that oftentimes as older people or as parents or professionals or educators, the first instinct is to want to fix, right? It’s to want to offer a solution, which is helpful. But oftentimes, I mean, I can certainly relate as a young person, when people shove things down my throat or told me, hey, you should be doing this. My first response, especially as a teenager, you know, would be very defensive. Um, and that’s not a way to relate to somebody who’s going through a phase in life in which they’re trying to define their individuality, and they feel like nobody understands. Right. Yeah. Um, so I think that there’s also, uh, it’s helpful to, to create a culture in which you’re just sort of, uh, you know, offering solutions, but also just saying, look, I don’t have all the answers.
Ryan Dusick: [00:45:04] The answers come from within. And essentially, a person who is in that place is going to be best served by feeling heard, feeling understood, and feeling that it’s okay to voice what’s going on inside of them. So oftentimes, the best thing you can do for someone is to show them that you’re willing to listen, just to ask questions and to reflect back what you’re hearing them say in a way that shows that you are listening and that you do understand. I mean, that’s literally the first thing they teach you in grad school to become a therapist is reflective listening, right? And it’s it’s probably like 90% of what we do as therapists is just just asking a question, an open ended question that allows someone to speak about their inner experience and then literally repeating back to them what they just said to them. And you’d be amazed how profound that can be for someone, because we go through our days feeling like no one really understands what we’re going through, and no one ever takes the time to really listen, because everyone else is all consumed with what’s going on inside of them. And so when somebody actually just repeats back to you what it is that you just said about when you really open up and talk about what’s going on with you, and somebody just repeats back what you just said, the response is sometimes are like, oh my God, you get it? Like, how do you how did you understand that? I was like, really saying what you just said.
Ryan Dusick: [00:46:30] You know? So I mean, I think that’s true for anyone at any age, but in particular for young people, you know, teens and people in their young adulthood. Uh, at the time in life when you most want to feel connected and understood and feel most disconnected, alienated and disillusioned, and if somebody actually takes the time to show an interest and then if you’re if they do feel comfortable opening up, you know, that person showing that they actually listened and understood, that can be a profound moment of connection.
Mindy Peterson: [00:47:00] Sure. Well, tell us about the. Services that you offer now as a therapist life coach, are they available in person only? Are they available remote? It sounds like you’re also doing some speaking to schools.
Ryan Dusick: [00:47:13] Yeah, well, I you know, I have a few different hats I put on now. You know, I’m a, I associate marriage and family therapist. And in that capacity I work at a clinic in Agoura Hills, California, called the Missing Piece Center for anxiety. So that’s kind of my day job. And, um, but I have my my private clients that I see as well, and I do in person. I do it on zoom. Actually. The first clients I ever saw in my traineeship were on zoom during the pandemic. So that was an interesting way to enter into the field. Yeah. Uh, but it’s been very fulfilling to be to be a therapist at this time, uh, in the world’s history. Uh, so, yeah, I’m a therapist, and I do both in person and online as a coach. And, you know, I’ve entered this whole other world, you know, with the book Harder to Breathe and, uh, promoting it where I’ve become a speaker and a coach and that is, there’s there’s less limits on that. It’s it’s less defined than the therapist role. And it’s a little bit different, but it’s, it’s there’s a lot of freedom because I can go anywhere in the world and speak to anyone.
Ryan Dusick: [00:48:13] And I can see people from around the world on zoom and, uh, and hopefully help them with some of the things that, uh, they’re, they’re working on in their life that, that I have some experience with. So they’re slightly different hats. I do, uh, yes, both in person and online. And speaking has become another hat that I’ve put on in this role of advocacy and talking about, you know, up until this point, it’s really just been me telling my story and sharing some of the things that I’ve gained, both individually in my own life and professionally in the education that I’ve gained as a therapist. But, you know, I’m venturing into a lot of different arenas now, like going into schools, colleges and universities and speaking, um, organizations and talking about some of the things that, um, that they deal with, uh, systemically and, uh, and so, yeah, it’s a few different hats that I wear. And, uh, on any given day, I might be wearing one or 3 or 4 of them.
Mindy Peterson: [00:49:08] What is the best place for listeners to go to find more about these different services that you offer or connect with, you get in touch with you?
Ryan Dusick: [00:49:15] The one stop shop is my website: ryandusick.com. Uh, if you if you send me a message through there, um, that’s the quickest way to to find me. And most.
Mindy Peterson: [00:49:25] Spelled Ryan d u s i c k.
Mindy Peterson: [00:49:31] Great. Any other, uh, recommended resources that you want to give to us in addition to your book, your therapist and coaching roles and services that you offer, are there any other books or websites or blogs or any other resources that you just want to, um, increase the awareness of?
Ryan Dusick: [00:49:50] Sure. Well, you know, um, there’s a book that kind of changed my life at the moment that I read it that I always recommend if people want, uh, a good read in terms of just a very practical approach to changing your relationship with yourself and your and your mindset going through life, mindfulness is a buzzword, you know, that we, uh, has become omnipresent and half the time that people use it, I don’t think they know exactly what it means. Uh, I know that I had a misunderstanding of what mindfulness was because I was I’m a classic overthinker, you know, and, uh, and mindfulness just sounded like. Well, that’s the opposite of what I need. I don’t need, I need to be less mindful, you know? Uh, but there’s a book called, uh, Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn, who was kind of the, uh, the godfather of mindfulness and the way that we relate to it now, it’s a big, thick book, but really, you only need to read the first part of it, which is about 150, 60 pages, to get a grasp of what mindfulness really is and its benefits. There’s a whole other section later in the book, a small chapter about stress in particular that is very helpful in terms of understanding what stress can do to the body. Uh, what it can do to the mind and body, and just even like inflammation in the body and, uh, your immune system and all these things. That chapter was really insightful in terms of what happened with me and what. Yeah, how helpful it is, the mind body connection and how important it is to de-stress. But the first part of the book is really just all about the mindset and the attitudes and the practice of mindfulness as a meditation, but also as a way of life. So I always recommend that because it’s kind of a one stop shop to kind of really change your relationship to your mind, body and spirit, uh, very tangibly, in a relatively short period of time.
Mindy Peterson: [00:51:38] Great.
Mindy Peterson: [00:51:39] I’m just going to read a couple quick quotes from your book that I really loved. Well, one is a quote from James Valentine. I maybe in the foreword at some point in the book, um, maybe an endorsement of the book. Harder to breathe is not only a detailed chronicle of the early days of the band, but an inspiring story of redemption. Ryan’s personal journey is inspiring and will remind those in. Need of help that change is possible. And really love that quote by James, who’s a member of the band. And I loved your descriptions of him and how he came to the band, partly because I’m a midwest girl and he was like the representative of the Midwest in your band. Everybody else was pretty much from LA. And when you talk about how we sort of chickened out on telling his previous band that he actually quit and was joining Maroon 5, and you thought he had already told them because he said he was going to and just, you know, here’s this nice, sweet Midwest boy. He just can’t, you know, doesn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. I was just laughing out loud when I read that. Like, that is totally Midwest Minnesota, you know, I mean, he’s not from Minnesota.
Mindy Peterson: [00:52:44] I think he’s Nebraska, but still. And then just the story of the closing song that you had at a lot of your concerts for a time, he was just begging you, please don’t play that closing song. When we’re singing in Utah and Nebraska, where my family is going to be, because it would he just he knew they would find it so inappropriate. So the band acquiesced and played something probably equally inappropriate in his family’s mind. But I love those stories. Yeah. Uh, and then just a quote from you from the book, my intent in writing this book has been to offer an example of how accepting help can actually change and possibly save a life. The stuff is not easy, and there are no shortcuts. The only way through it is through it. However, the rewards on the other side are so worth it. So love that! I highly recommend the book! Uh, Ryan, I ask all my guests to close out our conversation with a musical ending coda by sharing a song or story about a moment that music enhanced your life. Is there a song or story that you can share with us today? In closing.
Ryan Dusick: [00:53:49] Yeah, in terms of my musical life, I think we all can relate to the music that we fell in love with in our teen years. In particular, it seems to be around age 14 to 16 or 17. The music that we love at that moment in our life, in that transitional moment in our life, kind of stays with us forever and becomes a part of the fabric of our being. And for me, I was 14 years old when the whole Seattle grunge era of music started, with Nirvana coming out in 1991, uh, with nevermind. Um, and I really connected with that music and those, uh, those idols of rock stardom of my teen years Kurt Cobain, Eddie Vedder, Chris Cornell and others. But in particular, Chris Cornell of Soundgarden and the band Soundgarden were my favorite band and continue to be probably my favorite hard rock band of all time. Um, a lot of people wouldn’t know that. Listen to Maroon 5. You know that we have those roots and grunge, but our band actually was heavily influenced by that music. At the time that we started, Adam and Jesse were kind of the Pearl jam guys. Mickey was the Nirvana guy and I was the Soundgarden guy, and I think that the reason why I connected with that music and Chris Cornell in particular so much, was that it was this really. Almost paradoxical intersection between power and vulnerability. And I mean, Chris Cornell, you look you look at him, and he was this beautiful guy, you know, uh, very good looking and a rock star in, in any. Right, and had this incredibly powerful, soaring vocal range.
Ryan Dusick: [00:55:29] Uh, the music was heavy and driving and just just an onslaught of guitars and drums in a way that for a teen boy that was just playing the drums a couple of years was absolutely awesome in a in a very masculine way, you know, very, very strong and powerful. But then you have this very wounded soul singing, very dark and heavy lyrics about the pain that he was going through. And that was something you didn’t really see. I mean, you know, there’s the storied history of the blues, but this was like the most over the top heavy music with the most dark and vulnerable and sensitive lyrics. And there was just something about that dichotomy between those two elements of the music that really spoke to me, and something that I really related to because I felt like as an athlete growing up, I related to that hyper masculine power and strength and, uh, and pushing through. But then I also felt like I had a really strong connection to my feminine side, and that I was a very sensitive boy. I was shy and introverted in, and I had these anxieties and insecurities and, and in some ways I couldn’t relate to, to the, the sort of hyper masculine model of what it was to be a boy or a man. So that music really spoke to me and I felt that connection. And also, I think that that music, that music took on extra meaning for me because when I got sober in 2016, you know, I was about to celebrate my first year, a year of sobriety in 2017 when Chris Cornell died.
Ryan Dusick: [00:57:02] Um, and of course, we had lost Kurt Cobain back in 94, and that was a wake up call in terms of, uh, the heaviness of that music and the people that were making it and the realities of what these people were going through. But it was it was a reminder at a very important moment in my life. And he had already meant so much to me in the music that he’d created and the person that he was. But even in his death, it was a wake up call for me. You know that this is this is what this can lead to, you know, the substance abuse or mental health, uh, issues for him, his music clearly was his coping mechanism. And for the longest time, I’m sure it was helpful and helpful to people like me who connected. And there’s that word again, connection.
Mindy Peterson: [00:57:46] Right? Right.
Ryan Dusick: [00:57:47] With with what he did so powerfully. But even he this, this seemingly superhuman man who had all this power, um, as an artist succumbed to, uh, the issues that he dealt with. And so it was just a reminder for me being at that pivotal moment, another transition in my life as I was as a teenager, first listening to that music that as I enter recovery, you know, just how how fragile this thing is, you know, and how how we do need to be mindful of how we take care of ourselves and speak up when we’re going through something. It kind of came full circle for me in that moment. And so to this day, you know, Chris Cornell and Soundgarden is still, um, you know, they’re they’re very meaningful to me. And I think will be for the rest of my life.
Transcribed by Sonix.ai