Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.
Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson, and this is Enhance Life with Music, where we explore the ways music makes our lives better and spotlight the resources you can use to enhance your life with music. I am really excited about today’s conversation because it’s a topic that’s brand new to me, the overlap of music and architecture, to put it simply. We’ll get into a little bit more than that, but my guest today is joining us from Melbourne, Australia. Architect Doctor Jenna Mikus specializes in balancing wellbeing science with architectural science to promote health and wellbeing through design. Her primary objective is to curate environments for flourishing well-being. This work builds on her education and engineering, architecture, design and over 20 years consulting experience. Doctor Mikus is the founder and managing partner of the Eudae Group. She has conducted research through fellowship appointments and is the founder of Harvard’s Flourishing by Design group. Welcome to Enhance Life with Music, Jenna.
Jenna Mikus: [00:01:08] Oh, it’s such a pleasure to be here. Thanks, Mindy. I’m such a fan of the show.
Mindy Peterson: [00:01:11] Well. Thank you. In looking at your work done, I saw a lot of the word eudaemonia and variations of it, like eudaemonic design, Eudae Group, and also a lot of the terms neuroarts and neuroaesthetics. We’ve talked on this show about neuroarts. I’ll link to an episode in the show notes with Susan Magsamen on this topic. And I know you’re connected with Susan as well and are familiar with her work, but eudaemonia is probably a new word for a lot of us. I know it’s new for me. Can you tell us a little bit about what you mean by eudaemonia? And also just give listeners a quick refresher on what neuroaesthetics is, or neuroarchitecture, since I’m guessing those terms will come up a bit in our conversation.
Jenna Mikus: [00:01:55] Yeah. Of course. Yes, eudaemonia is not necessarily a word that comes up in everyday conversation. It’s becoming a little bit more so. I definitely now hear it in different circles. Whereas a few years ago I did not. But eudaemonia is a Greek word or Greek term that I came upon in 2018 or so, and at the time I was kind of transitioning my focus. And you did introduce me as an architect earlier, but I always joke that I was trained as both an engineer and an architect, but I’m professionally neither. I’m kind of a strange mishmash strategist. That’s the best way to put it. But I had transitioned kind of from smart, sustainable buildings into doing more focus on health curation within built environments. And some of my really smart clients were asking me around the mid 20 tens, who’s doing this? Well? And I went on holiday to London and was in the Building Centre Museum, which is a museum that I love there, especially for, you know, dorky architecture people like myself and came upon the word eudaemonia and looked into it further and really thought it struck a chord. So eudaemonia. Comes down to basically a breakdown of good and health. So you and Damon. So it’s kind of good health, good spirit. And with that you can kind of see that there are a lot of different meanings that can be kind of referred, inferred from that. And so when I looked into it at first I was just like good health. That’s great. What if we were to design for good health in built environments? I kind of like that take. And I was doing a lot of work with clients about how can you use design futuring what do you want your space to look and feel like in one year, two years, five years? Considering that from different perspectives.
Jenna Mikus: [00:03:37] And at the time, like I said, it was more smart and sustainable. So it was like, how can you use smart buildings to be able to have those experiences? And that is one conversation. But I wanted to get more about what does that look and feel like experience in general? Like how would that actually be felt? Um, and so that was really a nice way for me to segue and start thinking about, well, an ideal way of thinking about it is designing for eudaemonia. What what would that be like? And then crazily decided to start my own consulting firm and explore that a little bit further, and then take a PhD offer on the other side of the world to be able to build some fundamental theory into that eudaemonic design, which is really just the term that I use for designing for eudaemonia. And then I learned more about well-being science. So well-being science is, you know, designing for oftentimes seen as positive psychology, which originated at UPenn with Marty Seligman. And it’s really kind of living well, living your best life. Um, you know, sometimes that’s joked about in social media nowadays, but, you know, really from a meaningful perspective, how can you infuse meaning and purpose into your life? And so pneumonia becomes not only about physical, mental, social health and designing comprehensively for those, which is how I kind of initially interpreted the PhD when thinking about the built environment, but taking it a step further.
Jenna Mikus: [00:04:58] And so when you look into eudaemonia just from a background perspective, a lot of it refers to flourishing. So Aristotle took it to that point and really interpreted it as flourishing. Sometimes it’s seen as happiness, but I think flourishing is all encompassing. And then with that comes different aspects of ethics, because a lot of people think it’s a very ethical premise, so you can explore those nuances of it, but then also connection. And then through my research, because I did a lot of co-design work with creative methods with older adults and designers, it became about intentional praxis. So really intentionally engaging, coming at a problem from a place of curiosity and, you know, just real collaboration. And, you know, when when you think about it too, you have the intentionality and therefore the iterative betterment, too. And there are just a lot of there are a lot of nice overlaps there. And then with positive psychology too, it’s really interesting because control is such a huge aspect of noise and music. And so, you know, the reason that people get really frustrated with sound is because there’s so little ability to control it. And positive psychology. The premise with self-determination theory, which is a theory that I use for designing for eudaemonia, is all about autonomy, competence and relatedness. So all those different aspects come together. Plus, even Plato, who was Aristotle’s teacher, Plato’s idea of music and the arts as being just fundamental for human and nature connectedness. So yeah, there are a lot of different avenues that I’ve been pursuing this eudaemonia word from.
Mindy Peterson: [00:06:38] Well, I love that description. I mean, just kind of like this flourishing living your best life thriving. I do like that term much better than unhappy? I guess because we tend to have I tend to have this view of happiness as a very transient kind of superficial thing. Like it, it doesn’t depend on you. You don’t necessarily have control over it because circumstances can happen, that you happen all the time that we don’t have control over. Whereas I feel like the eudaemonia concept is more about making the conscious choice to to choose joy, to thrive, to choose what’s going to bring about vibrancy. It is this intentional, deep, meaningful, purposeful type of a concept rather than more of a transient type of a. I’m happy because I’m eating ice cream right at the moment, you know.
Jenna Mikus: [00:07:32] Exactly. Yeah. And that’s really the interpretation that I like to it’s allowing for those the high points and low points of life. That’s really the authentic eudaemonic life. It’s recognizing it’s not about perfection. We’re not necessarily going after that. We’re preparing ourselves and curating experiences so we can protect ourselves. And we have a trough or, you know, be able to really enjoy the peaks when they happen. Sure.
Mindy Peterson: [00:07:56] Or you could be dealing with chronic disease management and still experience vibrancy. You could still be flourishing in your own way. Whereas you may not necessarily describe your life as a happy life because you’re dealing with pain or challenge, you know? So I do like that. Um, okay. Before I ramble too much about that, give us a quick refresher on Neuroaesthetics neuro architecture. What you mean by that?
Jenna Mikus: [00:08:22] Yeah, of course. I think, um, the best way that I like to put it is just how the arts and the aesthetics affect us. Like, a lot of us feel it viscerally and neuroaesthetics and more broadly, neuro arts is really just the study of that, that how we understand and translate the power of the arts. And of course, Susan Maxman and Ivy Ross wrote a fantastic book, Your Brain on Art. I actually just interviewed Susan for my Flourishing by Design group last week, so I have her book next to me. It’s like a little Bible with all these little tabs. Oh it’s.
Mindy Peterson: [00:08:54] Fantastic. Yeah, I interviewed her about the book, which I’ll link to in the show notes. It’s wonderful. Oh, good. Well, I kind of think of Neuroaesthetics, too, as sort of a multidisciplinary thing. It’s not just sound, it’s not just the visuals. It’s just it’s not just the tactile. It involves multiple layers. And it doesn’t need to include all of those layers, but sort of multiple layers. So really exciting stuff that that she’s doing with shining the spotlight on some of that. Well, I find it really interesting that you have quite a background in terms of the arts and specifically music, but some of the other arts, dancing and some other arts as well. You grew up as a competitive classical pianist, a dancer, vocalist. You’ve continued singing in choruses, um, you’ve sung in choruses affiliated with the Cleveland Orchestra, Nashville Symphony. National Symphony in DC. Currently the Royal Melbourne Philharmonic. And I know you’ve mentioned that your arts foundation, especially the Dalcroze Eurhythmics, set you on a trajectory of movement based study. And I’m guessing that continues to inform your work today. Can you tell us just a little bit about how your musical and artistic background influenced your career choice or vocational path, and maybe just a little bit of how it continues to inform your work today?
Jenna Mikus: [00:10:13] Yeah, I feel like this is something that I could I mean, I went on and on about eudaemonia earlier, and I could probably do the same with this because, you know, we know especially for people who are maybe musicians or just really care about music, it really does affect so many aspects of your life. And as you grow and change to, again, having those peaks and valleys, it’s one of the things that can remain constant, which is really nice too. So I think just from a personal perspective, that’s been an experience that was very carefully curated by my parents when I was young, like I grew up, I was an only child. They had me start piano when I was three, I think, and I had done Dalcroze Eurhythmics quite young as well right around that same time. So I think I was actually doing dalcroze at Cleveland Institute of Music, and then my mom went and found this piano teacher who she loved. And so I ended up studying at CIM as well for quite some time until we moved and, you know, just developed this appreciation. And we always had classical music on in my home. It was just a matter of what was on. I always kind of laugh because when my husband first came home and met my parents, there was, you know, the classical music on. And he had grown up in a family with very little music played. And our dinner table, like my dad was talking about the piece and, you know, my husband was just looking around like, I don’t know anything about this.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:31] And, you.
Jenna Mikus: [00:11:32] Know, it was around that time that I started realizing, this is this is really different. How, um, I didn’t realize exactly how separate it is. But, you know, with music, I think it helps with not only my going into engineering and kind of being an artsy engineer, as I still put it to today, and, you know, just being able to appreciate and count, you know, I think rhythmically being able to figure out how to count and then, you know, make those correspondence pieces with mathematics and calculus and whatever else you want to study. There’s that element, I think, just structurally, you know, you have that, um, music as frozen architecture terminology.
Mindy Peterson: [00:12:07] That I haven’t heard that before, but that totally makes sense.
Jenna Mikus: [00:12:10] Oh, yes. Yes. So that’s a really interesting term too, that I came upon when I was first kind of transitioning into architecture around 2010. And I think there are a lot of reasons for those correspondences, too. So I think that’s quite fun. But even if you just think about delivery, you know, that that intentional praxis that I was talking about with eudaemonia, that we kind of interpreted some of my PhD research as. I think that comes from the element of practice every day. You know, like I was having to rehearse and do hours at the piano. And, you know, to get good and be able to have the muscle memory takes time, and it’s a matter of having the appreciation for putting in the work. And oftentimes there are a couple podcasts, especially one that’s called flourish FM by two gentlemen who are affiliated with, you know, some of the same flourishing research. And they always say, you know, putting in the work. But I think especially with music, there is that element, like we’re singing Handel’s Messiah this weekend for Royal Melbourne Philharmonic. And so I, you know, rehearsal tonight and Sunday morning and then Sunday evening for the, for the actual performance. And it’s just having that dedication to your craft. It’s understanding the nuance of life. When I deliver things even doing a talk, it’s intonation, you know, it’s volume. It’s connection. Understanding your audience, you know, all those things become relevant in your day to day life. So I think personally and professionally, it’s touched me in a lot of ways. And, and I try to also take that into my spaces. So today I’m in my home office so I can curate conditions to exactly as I want. Like I said before, you know, control is such an aspect of noise. So just being able to be comfy in my space and yeah, so all those different pieces really, really do come into play. Mm.
Mindy Peterson: [00:13:54] Well I know you’ve said that there are eight senses that you consider when you’re curating environments for health and wellbeing. We tend to think of the five senses. Tell us what the eight senses are that you take into consideration. Sure.
Jenna Mikus: [00:14:08] So there’s visual of course. Auditory, olfactory for smell, gustatory for taste. Um, tactile is sense of touch. And then there’s the extra three that most people don’t necessarily know as much about. So the sixth is vestibular. So that really is all about balance spatial orientation. So that’s where that dalcroze eurhythmics the movement really does come into play. Um, proprioception which is all about body positioning and movement. So also another piece where, you know, once you get to that, that place of understanding your orientation with the vestibular, it’s taking it to the next movement point. And then there’s interoception. And that’s the eighth sense. And that’s all about the physiological condition of the body. So feeling things like hunger thirst and pain. So you know bringing those all to the fore and thinking about those in the spaces as we design them.
Mindy Peterson: [00:15:02] Okay. This is my next question, is my favorite one that I’ve been really looking forward to asking you. And that is, tell us about the musical considerations that you factor into designing environments for eudaemonia, for human flourishing.
Jenna Mikus: [00:15:19] So I think with eudaemonia, it takes it a step beyond even just health and well-being. So you can look at the requirements of having a healthy building atmosphere and having, you know, not just indoor air quality, but indoor noise and sound quality, and that can come with elements like buffering just so you don’t have that annoyance. You know, for maybe your neighbor, um, it’s perhaps putting in things like pink, brown, other colors of noise in an office environment so that you have that nice, steadfast background so that it’s not something that you’re going to be as in tune to what your neighbor is doing. So being able to just kind of buffer that a tiny bit. Um, sometimes it’s incorporating things that are biophilic in nature. So biophilia is our innate connection as humans to nature. So incorporating things like birdsong has become really popular in a lot of office buildings, lobbies, things like that the past few years. And that’s been shown to reduce cortisol and all these other pieces of brain function. So there you go with some neural architecture references. I don’t get as into brain science, but every so often I explore that, um, you know, and really just all the other pieces that come with it. One thing that I really like is understanding the materiality of things.
Jenna Mikus: [00:16:38] I think it’s the mechanical engineering undergrad. The material selection is so important, especially when you think about it. With architecture, it’s having the soft versus the hard material materials. Being able to see how incorporating a combination of everything can really make a nice balance, because you don’t want it too soft. Then. Then you’re yelling across the room to try to speak with somebody. You know, you want a little bit of balance and, you know, just all those different pieces coming together to not only affect volume, but also, you know, the different pieces of just how you experience a space. And I think I mentioned to to you, as we were preparing the idea of Neurodivergence and how that comes into play too. So a lot of my work lately has been thinking about designing with people. So it’s not just going to the standards that the International Well Building Institute or the General Services Administration do with their fitwell governance, or even Harvard’s nine Principles of a Healthy Building, I think is what they call that, because there are, of course, regulations and rules and things like that that you can keep to and should keep to. But it’s beyond that. It’s working with people to understand what they prefer in their condition space.
Jenna Mikus: [00:17:51] So I like working with people to see how they feel. And with that, I’ve explored the idea that I am very highly sensory sensitive, and I now know this. I have a hypothesis that and maybe this has been proven and I’m just not aware. But people who grow up with music and understanding those aspects of sound are maybe a little bit more tuned in to having that appreciation or maybe, you know, potential for bother. And I’m still kind of curious to that today. But I now believe that I have misophonia as well, which is just having this almost a response of anger at some noises where you get so bothered by a sound, it can really just it kind of prompts you. And my mom was always like that too, which is so funny. We’d go to restaurants and have to move tables. That utensil sound was just too much for her. And I have that to some degree. And so I, you know, it just helps me have a different experience knowing that people experience things differently. And it’s important to curate that as you go and just make sure that there’s not a one size fits all answer.
Mindy Peterson: [00:18:54] Sure. Well, and I think you had a pretty deeply personal experience with this that resulted in you moving to Melbourne because of some Olympic related construction that was ongoing. Is that right?
Jenna Mikus: [00:19:07] Yes. I forgot we had exchanged a note about that at one point too. But yes, I was living in Brisbane. That’s where I did my my studies for PhD. And as I was wrapping up then, not too long before that, Brisbane had won the 2032 Olympics and that just kicked off construction. And of course, in my industry, that’s normally good to stick around for because that means more work. But I lived right in kind of downtown Brisbane and a really lovely location. But that meant all time daytime and nighttime work. So daytime for the actual building construction and nighttime for infrastructure, where they started redoing a variety of, you know, bus, train, etc. terminals not far from me. And the noise at 3 a.m. of metal on metal with, you know, putting up scaffolding. So it was just a bit much and it was hard to stay within the city confines and be able to escape that. So we were already thinking about maybe having a change of pace. And Melbourne is really known for some of its culture, so we thought we would make a change for that. But yes, exactly. I’m very particular about where I live. And, you know, it makes sense why that’s the case. Yeah.
Mindy Peterson: [00:20:14] Well, earlier too, when you were talking about the biophilic music of birds, you know, nature’s music, one thought that came to my mind is music is such an individual preference, like you have to take individual preferences into account in order for it to have the desired impact. And with nature sounds, you can sort of bypass that to some extent, like. And with, with the white noise, the pink noise, the brown noise that you were mentioning too, that can help with focus or rest. You know, those things, it seems like, correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like those would have a little bit more of a universal effect on people and be a little bit less susceptible to individual tastes and preferences. Is that right?
Jenna Mikus: [00:21:02] Yes, I think so. I don’t know the degree to which that is true, but it does plug into our physiological response. So we as humans seem to react much better to nature sounds than artificial sounds, like construction. So I think it just is a matter of balance. And sometimes volume can really help with that. And, you know, just making sure that when you’re walking into a building, it’s not this cacophony of birdsong. And I’ve definitely had that in some hospital experiences where it’s just this overlay and you already are stressed, so you’re at this heightened sense of awareness, and then on top of it, you’re hearing birds. And especially in Australia where some of the birds are a little bit more, um, not aggressive but aggressive sounding like the cockatoos have quite an interesting noise. Okay, so, um, but yes, you’re right, there is um, there is that piece for sure.
Mindy Peterson: [00:21:51] Sure. The other thought that came to my mind with what you were saying was restaurant environments and spaces. I’m I’m hoping, I’m wondering I’m hoping that they become more tuned into this need for soft absorptive materials and replacing hard surfaces with those, because I don’t have the greatest hearing and my dad’s is is quite bad, and he has hearing aids, and for years he’s complained about the environment and restaurants. And he’s like, you go to these restaurants to try to connect with people and have a conversation, and you can’t hear anything they’re saying because of all of the hard surfaces and the high ceilings and all of this, you know, where the sound is just reflecting. And he actually is a mechanical engineer. So I think he’s definitely highly sensitive to sounds in general. Um, but, you know, I certainly noticed that in certain restaurants, it’s like I’m sitting right next to somebody and I can barely hear what they’re saying, and we’re shouting. And that’s it’s just not a fun experience if that’s what you’re there for, is to connect and have conversation.
Jenna Mikus: [00:22:56] Exactly. And I think you can also notice the quality of the restaurant, too. And I don’t want to, you know, say quality in a matter of delivery or, you know, health codes and things like that. But when you pay for the experience, that’s not just about the food, it’s about that environment. And, you know, how hugged do you feel by your environment? Is that something that you know you feel very comfortable in? So if you go to like a Chipotle versus a fancy restaurant. Chipotle has harder surfaces. It’s more casual. Part of that is because it’s easier to clean. You know, it’s a little bit easier to replace that materiality, those different pieces. It doesn’t mean it’s a lesser experience, but it’s certainly quite different. And if you’re going for something that you want to have a one on one conversation that’s quiet and more prolonged, you’re going to want to be in a cushier environment. And part of that cushiness is the softer aspect that can then have a higher absorption rate for sound, and therefore will help mollify some of those background conditions. So all that comes into play for sure.
Mindy Peterson: [00:23:56] Well, you focus a lot on design for homes, offices, aged care, health care and education. Is that right?
Jenna Mikus: [00:24:04] Yes. It really runs the gamut. So I’m sure there are even others in there. And I’ve been getting more into the nuanced pieces, too.
Mindy Peterson: [00:24:10] Okay. And there’s certainly counterparts of yours who design for retail environments and other spaces. Are there any sort of general rule of thumb principles that you can just recommend for people if they want to just try something a little bit different in their home or in their area of work, or their workspace.
Jenna Mikus: [00:24:31] That’s such an interesting question, I like that. Um, I do, I try to stay away from general suggestions, but certainly I mean, that idea of biophilia, I think that would be a key thing to think about, how to best incorporate that into your space. I have some colleagues who like to just have not necessarily the birdsong, but waterfall sounds. You know, even things that were popular a couple of decades ago has that’s kind of resurfaced. I tend to do a lot of white noise, like I can’t sleep without a white noise sort of noise, whatever it is, maybe it’s an app on my phone or a machine, and that helps with focus. So like I do things differently in my space based on my task. You know, activity based working is huge right now, and that really also speaks to a lot of the work that I do. So when I write, I change things. Like I have a different scent that I put into my infuser. I put I like, kick up the fan so that I have a little bit more of the white noise. Sometimes I’ll even put on ASMR in the background. So like a cooking kind of video. For some reason that takes me home and I’ve kind of. I’ve been really intrigued by the ASMR community over the past few years, just to see how some of that can really be used intentionally, and some.
Mindy Peterson: [00:25:48] People just are stands for.
Jenna Mikus: [00:25:51] Oh, I never remember them.
Mindy Peterson: [00:25:53] Okay. That’s fine.
Jenna Mikus: [00:25:55] In fact, I was asked this last night at dinner and I was just like, I never remember autonomous sensory meridian response.
Mindy Peterson: [00:26:02] So I can’t remember it.
Jenna Mikus: [00:26:04] No, it’s quite the mouthful. And my brain has already it’s at capacity with different acronyms. So let’s just put it that way. But um, it’s it’s defined as the tingling sensation that some people get when listening to different sounds, and.
Mindy Peterson: [00:26:19] That’s why it sounds familiar to me. Okay. Yes.
Jenna Mikus: [00:26:23] You know, like you think about the frisson. Sometimes people talk about that, like the chilling feeling that you feel in the back of your neck. Okay. I’m not I don’t know much about biology, but I think it’s all that comes from, you know, when we have the hairs as animals and, you know, the hairs literally stick up in the back of your neck. And it’s a similar sort of response, this physiology. But I think some people have more of a tendency to feel it than others. And so I’ve always kind of felt aspects of that for sure. You feel, you know, you hear a beautiful movement in a piece, especially something that might have resonance to your childhood and brings up a memory. And you, you have this evocative sort of emotional response. And so some of that really plays in. And so you can of course, incorporate some aspects of ASMR too.
Mindy Peterson: [00:27:08] Okay. Is a lot of the eudaemonic work that you do related to design. Is it new construction? Is it renovation? Is it something that you can go into an existing space and just sort of retrofit to include some of these concepts and take advantage of the the knowledge base that there is now? Yeah.
Jenna Mikus: [00:27:29] So I think eudaemonic design, again, that’s just the term that I coined, but it’s essentially a layer that you can just put upon anything. So it can be applied for new build, it can be applied to retrofit, I think because I come from a perspective of wanting to have something that’s a sustainable approach, being more socially responsible and therefore retrofitting. Therefore, you know, rather than having a new build and advocating for new build, that’s something I just inherently kind of seek for. But it’s just balance, you know, it’s it’s doing things at a way that is going to have these elements of science. Again, the architectural science, when you think about the spaces and then the wellbeing science and making sure that you’re coming at that from a place of intention and integrity. And I think with that, again, like the ethics and those different pieces certainly speak to perhaps having a more sustainable approach that references things like Mother Nature holding those things in high regard.
Mindy Peterson: [00:28:25] Okay. You mentioned your personal connection with people who have sensory sensitivities. And one of your specialties is this eudaemonic design for that population. Can you tell us a little bit more about any additional elements that you really consider when you’re designing for a neurodiverse population?
Jenna Mikus: [00:28:46] Exactly. Yeah. So, um, I think this has been really fun because this is one of the few areas that I can overlap with some of my husband’s work. He was trained as a civil engineer and now does work with people with different abilities, and we’ve been able to overlap a little bit on doing neurodivergent design. And again, as I’ve kind of understood my own sensory sensitivity, it’s helping me also viscerally understand what people experience. So when I was living in Brisbane, not only was the sound in issue, but the light was as well. So I would get migraines from the extreme sunshine and a lot of people are like that, and it’s just really interesting to to see how that comes into play too. So just understanding that looking at guidelines, but also knowing that that’s just a starting point for a lot of people, like this is something that is for the general public, understanding that there are going to be different circumstances that should be accounted for. And that’s why there’s a lot of infusion of inclusive design theory in my work, because I learned about that when I first started my PhD. It’s about designing with and for different groups and making sure that they are accommodated. And so by doing that, you design for the ordinary and the extraordinary people, places, life moments.
Jenna Mikus: [00:30:04] And so I’ve been really intrigued as I’ve done different types of neurodivergent designs can you can kind of see how that will come into play, because, you know, you may have people who are nonverbal and they, of course, want to still experience a space that’s beautiful and, you know, comfortable. But how they potentially communicate that might be different. And, you know, trying to then understand what they want and how they want to then communicate that they’re happy with it sometimes takes a little bit negotiation. And so that’s been just a really fun application of that intentional praxis that I’ve been able to do a little bit more of. So, you know, just walking into a space, going through the eight senses, just in my own kind of brain scan as I go and thinking about, all right, this all seems okay. This is what I would do, just, you know, in general by guidelines. But then how can we take it a step further? What is something that I think might be a trigger for somebody? And then let’s make sure to not forget them in the process. Let’s make sure that we really incorporate their feedback along the way.
Mindy Peterson: [00:31:08] Mhm. Well this is all so fascinating. One thought that keeps coming to my mind, just with hearing about your work and hearing about your background, is just as a reminder that music training, music lessons are not just for those kids who grow up to be vocational performing musicians. Music lessons are life lessons, and they inform any vocation that we might go into. They make us better engineers, better architects, better teachers, better doctors. So really fun to hear your musical and artistic background and how that informs your work now. If if listeners are listening to this and this is really resonating with them and they’re wanting to learn more about this overlap of music and eudaemonia eudaemonic design, are there any resources that you can recommend to listeners who want to just dig in a little bit more and learn more?
Jenna Mikus: [00:32:02] Yeah, I think well, I mentioned some of the guidelines earlier. So if somebody wants to just look at those, there are some good ideas, especially if you’re thinking about how to, you know, tactically change your space. So you can look at the International Well Building Institute. I’m an advisor for them. The GSA’s Fitwel program. That’s one word Fitwel. And then Harvard’s nine principles of a Healthy Building. And there’s literally a book written that’s called Healthy Buildings that came out just before Covid hit. So this was a topic that was having even just some interest before then. But then, of course, you can just look at my Google Scholar if you want to get into some of the more eudaemonia focused work in my PhD, some of that’s out there. So and then follow me on LinkedIn. I try to share as much as I can. Like even this week I saw Joshua Bell and talked a little bit about some of that performance space. Okay, that I was looking at. Yeah.
Mindy Peterson: [00:32:54] So fascinating. Well, and as I get older, all of this is seeming more and more relevant to me what you’re doing. Because my like I said, my dad has hearing issues and it continues to get worse as he gets older. And we have a good friend who has Meniere’s disease. And so. Oh, and then neuropathy is something that’s very common with older people and something that my dad is also dealing with. So there you get into some of these issues of balance that you mentioned with one of the elements that you consider, one of the senses that you consider the vestibular system. People with anything going on with that internal ear system, I mean, their balance can be so affected by that. And so all of these things are just seeming more and more relevant to me as I get older or my parents get older. We have older friends who are experiencing some of these challenges too, and in general here in the US anyways, we definitely have an aging population. So, um, I hope that there’s more and more people entering this field and really, really value what you’re doing. It’s really exciting. I’ll include links in the show notes to some of those resources that you mentioned, so that listeners can really easily find some of that. Before I have you close things out with a coda, is there anything else that you want to mention about this work or the connection between music and sound and built environments?
Jenna Mikus: [00:34:22] So I guess two things really quickly, just to loop back on what you just said. So older adults, of course, that’s such an important population to design for. And I actually worked with older adults for my PhD, so both to help with population aging for the increasing number that there are, but then also as a mechanism to design for all, because if you design with those populations that oftentimes can benefit other demographics. So I think that’s really key. So if anybody wants to look at it from that perspective, that’s what the PhD was all about. And then I applied that very really when very really that’s a, you know, specific term. But with my my father was having health issues last year and we curated every aspect of his apartment. He fell and hit his head, and he was a bit delusional for a few months. And how we got through was through music and through having that environment that he felt comforted by.
Mindy Peterson: [00:35:15] So some examples of what you did in his apartment.
Jenna Mikus: [00:35:19] So with that, you know, is having different pieces that he could see. That would be a reference point. And, you know, maybe it would be photographs. But oftentimes with him, because what he appreciates is music. It was music. So going back and finding some of his favorite pieces, having that on consistently in the background at a volume that I know that he prefers, some of those pieces really comes into play. And so you just, you know, try to find what people what resonates literally pun intended with people and go from there. And then in terms of music, too, you know, we talked a little bit about how it comes into play in everyday life. But, you know, music touches so many aspects of past, present and future, even when we think about how we process sound, where it is in the brain, it’s near where we have our memory locations. Again, not a neuroscientist, but I find that really interesting. And that’s talked about a little bit in Susan’s book. So, you know, that’s something that I think is quite fun to evoke. And then third, I’m going to just add one more. You mentioned earlier about Multidisciplinarity. One thing that I’m really trying to advocate for in my work lately is the appreciation for people who have this transdisciplinary approach, because everything is rather siloed in the world still, especially like built environment. It’s so architects versus engineers, and I tend to kind of go in that bridging professional gray middle area to connect the dots with depth and breadth. So I think encouraging and appreciation for these sorts of approaches really helps. And the Intentional Spaces Summit that Susan put on as part of the Your Brain on Art book last year brought together a bunch of people I had been connected to for years, but never been in the same space with. So this community is is fantastic. It’s really fun to see what’s been happening with neural arts, etc. that’s exciting.
Mindy Peterson: [00:37:05] I work a lot in my day job with music faculty, in music departments at universities and colleges, and I cannot tell you how many times there will be a new newly built space or renovated space that is in the music department, and the music faculty are not consulted at all on the the rebuild of that space. And so once it happens, they’re like, did they not think about the fact that the HVAC system is like right next to fill in the blank a performance space or whatever? And so they’re having all of this, you know, sound that’s affecting or like next to the, the sound booth where they’re, you know, things like that. And it’s it’s really amazing how siloed things can get.
Jenna Mikus: [00:37:52] So yeah, it slows down the process and people just don’t like doing that at all. And sometimes that means feeling that as an issue later on. But of course, by then the building is delivered and people have moved on. So.
Mindy Peterson: [00:38:05] Right. Well, then it can increase the cost after the fact, because you’re having to add sound treatments after the fact so that you can actually utilize the spaces as they need to be used. So, um, yeah, I would love to see less of that and more of the collaborating and partnership and the multidisciplinary approach. So I love hearing what you’re doing. Well, Jenna, this has been so fun. As you know, I ask all my guests to close out our conversation with a musical ending, a coda by sharing a song or story about a moment that music enhanced your life. Do you have a song or a story that you can share with us today in closing?
Jenna Mikus: [00:38:40] I do. I had one that I was going to do and then I kind of changed it. But you already know about what I’m changing it to. Um, but this week, Joshua Bell, when he was performing, he did, um, an encore. That was a take that was violin and piano of Chopin’s Nocturne in E flat minor, and that was something that was always my favorite to play as a child. So that was quite fun. I almost suggested that we do that, but this is such a personal podcast. Most of my podcasts, I don’t normally mention my family as much, but my mother and father were very influential in terms of my music appreciation in particular, and my mom passed away a few years ago, and I always kind of regretted not being able to do something musical at her, you know, memory, memorial or funeral. And so I thought this could be a moment to be able to just pay that homage and and pay her homage in particular. So there is a song from Mamma mia! That’s an ABBA song, and it’s called, “Thank You For the Music.” And I always thought it was quite beautiful, so I thought I would just sing a little bit of that at the end. I am kind of recovering from a cold, so I have the recording to have you play. But yeah, just just a little bit of that. I thought that would be nice.
Transcribed by Sonix.ai