Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.
Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson, and this is Enhance Life with Music, where we explore the ways music makes our lives better and spotlight the resources you can use to enhance your life with music. I’m thrilled to welcome return guests today. Dr. Katherine Palmer is a master arts educator. I first met her in December 2020 when she was curator of Education at Phoenix’s Musical Instrument Museum. This museum is absolutely incredible, and I was blown away by the museum experience, and also by Dr. Palmer and her level of knowledge, and also the innovative programming that she was implementing. This was December of 2020, so we all know what was happening then, and I was just amazed by the innovative programming and by how quickly Dr. Palmer was able to really pivot with the pandemic and make so many of those programming options available online. So it was it was really, really impactful for me. I’ll put a link in the show notes to our conversation from MIM, the Musical Instrument Museum. Fast forward to today. Dr. Palmer is now the senior director of education and community engagement at the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum in Nashville. I had the chance to reconnect with her recently and experience the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum. In addition to being a nonprofit leader, museum professional, and passionate arts educator, Dr. Palmer is an ethnomusicologist and a clarinetist. Welcome back to Enhance Life with Music, Katie.
Katherine Palmer: [00:01:39] Hi, Mindy. Thanks for having me. It’s such a pleasure to talk with you again.
Mindy Peterson: [00:01:42] It’s so fun to reconnect with you. One thing that I realized after my 2020 visit to MIM is that not all museums are the static experiences where you can visit and check the box. That’s kind of what I tend to think of museums as. And after touring them with you and kind of strolling through it afterward at my own leisure, which I could spend forever there. It was amazing. It really opened my eyes to the fact that there are these amazing museums, like MIM and the Country Music Hall of Fame that are both incredible in-person experiences, and also education and outreach hubs that reach beyond their on site visitors. So I’m really excited to introduce my audience to this resource, both because I hope they’ll come and visit. It is an incredible in-person experience, but also want to introduce them to some of the programming and resources that are available, whether they’re in-person visiting, whether they’re in the greater Nashville area or beyond. So I want to talk about both of these aspects, the in-person experience and beyond. When I was talking about that static experience that I thought of museums as being, I realized all of these resources that some of these museums offer beyond the in-person experience, but also that they are constantly evolving institutions. They’re constantly growing. They’re not the static one and done experience. So we’re going to talk about both of those aspects. First of all, one part of your role at the museum is managing the Taylor Swift Education Center. Taylor Swift has been all over the news, breaking records for at least the last couple of years. Her Eras tour just wrapped up recently as we’re recording this conversation. Taylor’s musical origins were in country music, and she made a generous gift that allowed this education center to open in 2014 as part of the museum’s expansion. Tell us a little bit about the Taylor Swift Education Center and what it offers.
Katherine Palmer: [00:03:49] Yeah, the Taylor Swift Education Center is such a fun and interactive space, and we’re so lucky to have Taylor Swift’s engagement. And, you know, for her to recognize the significance of education and how much of an impact she can make in that area. So the Taylor Swift Education Center is housed inside the museum, and it’s a two story, 7500 square foot facility that includes things like classrooms, interactive distance learning labs, interpretive gallery pieces and gallery interactives, as well as well as some of Taylor Swift artifacts that are on display which, like you said, museums are ever changing and ever evolving. And so those those do change and evolve as, as we go through time.
Mindy Peterson: [00:04:36] Yeah. So these are really cool. I mean, I can’t claim to be a swiftie or anywhere close to a swiftie, but it was still really fun to see some of the clothing and instruments from her personal collection that were used for significant events, whether it was concerts and tours or album covers, things like that. And that is, as you mentioned, something that’s constantly changing and rotating.
Katherine Palmer: [00:05:01] Yeah. And I’ll say, even if you’re not a self-described swiftie, her career has now spanned decades, and the music she makes is quite diverse. And so I say this about country music, too, is that, you know, you might surprise yourself with something that you didn’t think you would like that catches your ear and you go, oh, you know, I actually really do kind of dig these sounds.
Mindy Peterson: [00:05:19] Oh, totally. Well, she’s spanned genres and she’s also spanned not only the music community and industry, but business. I mean, she’s an incredible businesswoman. She’s obviously gotten involved in sports in terms of her high profile relationship with Kelsea. And, you know, really brought a lot of overlap to the sports and music community. So, yeah, she’s she’s very a unique individual, and it’s always so cool to see people who have that kind of a platform use it for good. And so I love that she’s contributing and giving back in this way. Other stuff that you want us to know to know about the Education Center.
Katherine Palmer: [00:05:57] Other things include programming. So whether people are in Nashville or coming through Nashville, most weekends, we activate the classroom spaces with music, art or dance programming. Come in and try something out. It’s an opportunity to explore, discover and create with us in person. It’s also a space where you can pick up interactives at any time. Interpretive materials, making sure that we have things to help make the galleries more accessible to youth audiences. So things like interpretive coloring pages or scavenger hunts that end with a prize you can collect at the end. There’s something for everyone, I think.
Mindy Peterson: [00:06:34] Oh, totally. I know there was friendship bracelet making going on, and one of those spaces when I was there visiting. There’s a video conference lab, there’s an interactive gallery. So lots of exciting things for anywhere from toddlers and then older kids, but also schools. There’s it’s a learning environment for all ages, for sure. And that scavenger hunt that you mentioned, that I loved that because I personally, I had kids who were not quite as into the museum experience as I was, and so I love taking them there. They weren’t always super enthusiastic about going, and these kinds of scavenger hunts totally make it fun for everybody. And it really helps kids really experience all aspects of the museum. And like you said, it’s not just for that particular space in the museum, the education center, but it’s for various galleries to kind of help them really give them something to focus on and look for and make it a fun, kind of interactive experience. I think the coloring. Oh go ahead. Yeah.
Katherine Palmer: [00:07:42] I was just gonna say we absolutely want to make sure that we provide opportunities for guests of all ages, whether that’s young children or older adults that are coming through the space to find their own connections with country music and the content of the museum. And so those interactive pieces that we were just talking about, the scavenger hunts really are a great way for us to to realize that and to bring it to life.
Mindy Peterson: [00:08:03] Sure. And the scavenger hunt again, it just kind of blows my mind. All of the things that incorporate is incorporated into that. There’s a QR code to access kid friendly playlists of LA country rock music, and that kind of goes along with that particular gallery that’s related to that. The coloring pages that you mentioned, I think are downloadable for anybody. There’s explorer kits for kids with sensory sensitivities. So I know attention parents with kids with sensory sensitivities. A lot of times you may tend to steer clear of these types of environments, but this is a friendly place for your kiddos too.
Katherine Palmer: [00:08:42] Absolutely. And museums. And we at the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum in particular, have worked really hard to make sure that our spaces are inclusive and they’re accessible.
Mindy Peterson: [00:08:52] Yeah. So this education center has hands on workshops. There’s instrument workshops, song writing, dancing, art, including sewing and costume design. You have free programs for preschoolers all the way up to older kids. So really exciting things going on there. Talk to us a little bit about the programming that you have for schools, which goes pre-K through college. I work in my day job quite a bit with music faculty, whether it’s K through 12 or college, and I was really excited about some of the resources that you have available for schools and teachers. So tell us about some of those.
Katherine Palmer: [00:09:30] In addition to offering traditional field trips where students can come in, whether they’re local students or national or international students, we also have materials that are available online via our teacher Resource portal. And there you’ll find materials that have strong curriculum connections to English language arts. Social emotional learning skills. Math. Science. Technology. Engineering and mathematics or Stem and Steam categories. So all of these curriculum driven materials are housed on this one resource, the Teacher Resource Portal, which is free for educators to access. They just have to log in and sign up with us. And those are like the museum ever evolving and ever changing. And so we’re constantly updating and putting new resources on there to help bring country music history to the classroom, wherever people are.
Mindy Peterson: [00:10:22] That’s really exciting. I vividly remember the exhibit at Mihm over in Phoenix about the steam, where it really incorporated the science, technology, engineering aspects of sound and instruments, and how different instruments create different sounds and the different timbres and things like that. And this teacher portal, I love how it’s also incorporating some of those steam concepts, but then also like you mentioned, the SEL, the social emotional learning and sort of blending that with English arts. It teaches songwriting and incorporates some of those other holistic aspects. Educational aspects in the songwriting aspect to this portal is available to homeschool teachers as well, right?
Katherine Palmer: [00:11:08] Yeah. Educators of of any and all varieties. Really?
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:12] Okay. Yeah. So really exciting. Interesting resources there. I think you have some field trip information on there too, if people are close enough to make in-person field trips. Is that right?
Katherine Palmer: [00:11:24] Absolutely. Everything is available on Country Music Hall of Fame. You can find the teacher resource portal there, but you can also find our list of field trip offerings, which include traditional museum gallery tours and classroom experiences where we do workshops together, whether it’s an art design workshop or a listening technology. Over time, where we’re discovering how technology has changed and developed. There’s our steam Team components through Words and Music, which is our flagship educational program. That was the songwriting portion that you were mentioning previously.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:57] Yeah. Tell us just a little bit more about that. The Words and Music program.
Katherine Palmer: [00:12:01] It’s been around since 1979, so we’ve served over 180,000 participants over the years through songwriting education. And we’re really teaching students through English language arts the ways that they can craft their own song, which is hitting our social emotional learning or SEL skills, but also helping to develop things like rhyme scheme and metaphor understanding. And so as the students craft their own original song lyrics, we then pair their classroom with a Nashville based songwriter who helps to bring those songs to life. And so, during a field trip on site with us, those songs come to life for the students, with the Nashville songwriter in person. But you can also engage in the programming virtually. And so we’ll log on with you via zoom and have a nice, about hour long presentation of songs that the children have put together, and with some inspiration and co-writing from local Nashville songwriters.
Mindy Peterson: [00:12:59] Wow, that’s very cool. And sort of going along with that. I know during our conversation when we were together, we were talking about the fact that the museum partners with Creativets and sort of a similar way. Creativets is an incredible organization for veterans. It serves veterans. They were featured on quite an early podcast episode of this show, and it was one of those interviews that was very impactful for me. I’ll never forget just because Richard Casper, who founded and created this organization, had such a powerful story. I can put a link in the show notes, but for that with that organization, there’s sort of a similar situation where veterans will work with Nashville songwriters to write their own song, and you partner somehow with them. With the creative arts program.
Katherine Palmer: [00:13:51] We do, we provide words and music opportunities for the creative arts. And you know, we have such a talented and gifted team here. And so we have on staff songwriters that will log on with Creativets and provide guidance and help bring their their song to life together.
Mindy Peterson: [00:14:09] That’s amazing. One thing you mentioned during our, our visit is that country music history is American history. And I loved that phrase, that that sentence because it’s so true. I remember a friend of mine watched the Ken Burns documentary about country music. Oh I know. So she was like, Mindy, you should really watch this. And I was like, I’m not really a big country music person. And she’s like, I don’t care. You love music and you love history, so you’re going to love this documentary. She’s like, I own it. Just watch it. You’re going to thank me. And so I did, and I absolutely Lutely loved it, and I wasn’t aware until watching that how much influence country music had on other genres. And just like that sentence that you said about country music history is American history. There’s there was so much history involved in that country music documentary that it was really intriguing. Before we leave this whole teacher educator portal topic, just talk a little bit more about that fact that country music history is American history, because I think that’s a concept that a lot of teachers are really going to love, especially when they think about this holistic aspect of the resources that you offer to them on the portal.
Katherine Palmer: [00:15:26] You know, it’s one of the things I really love about arts, integrated music education and using music as a lens to teach through, because you really can hit more than what many would sort of perceive as just music based standards. Right? We’re doing so much more. I mentioned, of course, steam and Stem, I mentioned SEO, I mentioned Ella, but I didn’t say social studies and social studies is such a big part of the content. And whether or not you’re an educator and you’re looking for arts integrated approaches in your teaching, or if you’re just a general visitor that’s just deeply interested in how this country evolved and changed over time. You know, the country music story certainly has much to offer and much to give. Our Sing Me Back Home exhibit, which is our permanent exhibition, traces country music history from the pre-commercial early roots all the way through contemporary and common day. And there’s no point in time where music doesn’t intersect and overlap with everything that’s happening socially, culturally, politically, in this country. And those things all come to life through music. Um, and country music is such a uniquely American art form is really uniquely poised to tell that story of American history in a way that, you know, many may not initially think of us as a history museum, but we very much are.
Mindy Peterson: [00:16:50] Yeah, I love how you expressed that. That music really helps, that history come to life through through the music. When I was visiting the museum, I’m just going to tell you some of my favorites that I loved. And I’m not a huge car person, but you have a couple cars at the museum that are absolutely mind blowing, and they’re works of art in themselves. There’s the Webb Pierce car that has revolver handled, I think the revolver. I don’t know much about guns either, but the is it revolver hand door handles. Mhm. Okay.
Katherine Palmer: [00:17:26] And a saddle in the middle. It was designed by Nudie Cohn. And so it is um, it is a stylistic iconic piece unto its.
Mindy Peterson: [00:17:35] Own for sure. Yeah. That center console like you said is a saddle. There’s horns on the front of the car. All of the interior is the stamped leather interior. It’s absolutely incredible. And then the other car that was really mind blowing and so fun to see was Elvis Presley’s car. It’s a 1960s, 1960 Cadillac that was retrofitted with a gold plated TV, a record player, a phone, and then the the coating, the paint coating on it was diamond dust, pearl coating made from crushed diamonds and fish scales.
Katherine Palmer: [00:18:15] It is. It has such a unique shine to it for that reason, which I’m sure is why Elvis liked it and picked it.
Mindy Peterson: [00:18:23] Yeah. It’s incredible. I mean, I just had so much fun looking at it. And every time, like, every inch of it that you look at, you see something different because there’s so much, so much there.
Katherine Palmer: [00:18:34] It’s almost like a time capsule, right? Yeah. Going back.
Mindy Peterson: [00:18:38] Yeah. And had a phone in it when that was not a thing. Yeah, I think you mentioned the nudie suits either. I must have heard that term in the Ken Burns documentary, I’m sure, but I forgot. I must have forgotten it because when you said it, I was kind of like, nudie suit, like. And then when you explained what it was, I was like, okay, that was not the first thought that came to my mind when you said that. But it was so fun learning about and.
Katherine Palmer: [00:19:03] For your listeners.
Mindy Peterson: [00:19:05] Yes, yes. Go ahead and explain.
Katherine Palmer: [00:19:06] That nudie suit is our suits that have been made by the tailor, Nudie Cohn, who really sort of created some of the imagery associated with artists and did such a stylistic job that it has transcended time and generations. And, you know, the idea of sort of like a blinged out suit goes back to these Nudie Cohn suits.
Mindy Peterson: [00:19:31] Yes. And you have so many of them on display. The Cosmic cowboy nudie suits were amazing. One of them, there’s a picture of Elton John wearing it. It’s it’s really amazing to see these extravagant suits so super cool. Those were some of my favorites. It’s really cool to just the architectural nods to Tennessee that are, and to music that are part of the architectural design of the building. Some of the wood that’s used, the piano keys design of the building, both inside and outside, is really cool. The WSM tower replica that’s included in there, that’s sort of a tribute to that radio station really putting Nashville on the map. So lots of amazing things. Anything else that you want listeners to know in the time that we have here about some of the programming that the museum offers or something that you really want them to know about the in-person experience. Before I ask you about the Fred Rogers Fellowship that you did.
Katherine Palmer: [00:20:33] Yeah, I think that at the museum there’s there’s something for everybody. You know, you mentioned some of your favorite items. And I think what’s really, um, Fun and interesting about artifacts and the objects that are on display is that they each have their own little life and little story, and most people can find something that resonates with them, you know, through the early pre-commercial routes, like I mentioned, all the way through Common Day. I often encourage people when they come in to find something familiar, and then to find something new so that we’re building from a place of familiarity into a place of unknown. And that’s how relationships start.
Mindy Peterson: [00:21:09] Love that. The music community is definitely one that’s a connecting community. And music itself has been called social glue. And this museum is definitely really contributing to that connection between people, between music and history and so many other things. Well, since we first met in 2020, you were awarded the Gretsch Fellow in Children’s Music at the Fred Rogers Institute. We’re going to switch gears just a little bit here, because you told me about this white paper that resulted from your time there. And when I had a chance to read it, I just absolutely loved it and just wanted to save a couple of minutes for you to tell listeners about this, because I know many of them will want to read it, too, especially some of the educators or people who work with young kids, maybe parents who have young kids. When you had this fellowship, you investigated the impact of music making and listening on empathy and cultural awareness. You wrote this white paper that I mentioned, and I just would love for you to tell listeners about the topic that you chose to research and write about.
Katherine Palmer: [00:22:16] Thanks so much for taking the time to to read the paper. 2021 I accepted the fellowship position at the Fred Rogers Institute, which is housed at Saint Vincent College in Latrobe, Pennsylvania. And I have to say that, you know, I grew up watching Fred Rogers, so I already had a special place in my heart for what he represented, both through his television show, Mister Rogers Neighborhood and through his speaking engagements and writings during that time. What I was not expecting was to really walk away with an even deeper understanding of just how much music influenced him. I knew he was a musician. He went to Rollins College, majored in music, and penned a substantial number of songs and operas. And, you know, you hear that and see that on on the show. But music really did influence the ways through which he moved through the world and through which he put together the television show. Um, and so when I went into the fellowship, I really wanted to think about, you know, Fred was was the best neighbor I think all of us knew sort of growing up. And it was multigenerational, uh, because he was on TV for over 30 years. And I wanted to think about empathy. And he was so kind in all of his approach and so accepting on television and the way that he portrayed. And I just thought, you know, music played such an important role in the show. Where was the intersections between, um, you know, the music he was making, the music that we were listening to. So music making and listening and and empathy and how he approached that. I dug into the archives and really enjoyed getting to know, um, treasure trove that is housed there at the Fred Rogers Institute.
Katherine Palmer: [00:24:04] And, um, his writings and his editing in particular. He often would reference the phrase the Quaker saying, um, attitudes are caught, not taught. And when he when it came to music, he would occasionally edit that to say music and the attitude of music, right? As with most things music, the attitude is caught much more than taught. And modeling these positive associations with music making and listening to help watchers build their own their own relationship with music. But, you know, as you dug into the archives, you realize it really wasn’t about the music at all. And that, you know, music is about so much more than just the sonic happenings that that surround us. And really, at the end of the day, going back to that, you know, the Country Music Hall of Fame and Museum, the songwriting that happens and the social emotional learning and how we come to process all that is happening around us through artistic art forms, including music, is really at the root of it. And so I, you know, I sort of have this hypothesis, and I believe this very much that that we can help young children by diversifying their soundscapes. So if what you see is a landscape, what you hear is a soundscape. By diversifying soundscapes early on and making diverse sounds more familiar in early ages that I think that we have a little bit, you know, more open of a heart and certainly more open, open tiredness for diverse sounds, and I think that that helps us to feel better moving through the world with diversity.
Mindy Peterson: [00:25:47] Um love that. Well, one of the quotes that you had in the white paper that I loved and just kind of pulled out here. You said music is an interdisciplinary tool to foster knowing and understanding of the world. It helps to build inter and intra personal relationships. It is the soundscape to growing and learning, and that sort of speaks to some of the other things that we talked about earlier in this conversation about music as a social glue and a connector, and also how it can sort of exponentially aid education, whether it’s SEL or history or things like that. And some of the things also that you mentioned, Fred Rogers said, how attitudes are caught much more than taught when you implement music into them as well. It It was interesting to me to read a quote that you had from him in that white paper where he said, it seems that music has always been at the root of who I am and what I do. Some people might be surprised to know that first and foremost, I consider myself a musician. And as you mentioned, he penned over 200 songs and in 13 children’s operas for Mister Rogers Neighborhood, which you mentioned in the paper. So really, really incredible. I’ll for sure include a link in the show notes to that white paper, so that parents and educators can read that. You have some recommendations at the end of that for diversifying music making and listening. So very informative and practical. White paper.
Katherine Palmer: [00:27:21] Thanks, Mindy, I appreciate it.
Mindy Peterson: [00:27:23] Yeah. One other quote of yours that I want to mention as we close here is from your website and your website. You said arts education is about relationship building. It gives people the tools to better understand themselves, one another and the world around them. And you certainly I can speak from experience, have done that with your work. Continue to do that with your work. And both of the museums you’ve been a part of, MIM and now Country Music Hall of Fame, are certainly doing this as well. So highly recommend the experience to listeners, both for an in-person visit and then also to access some of the resources that the museum makes available, whether you’re there in person or you’re beaming in remote and taking advantage of some of those resources. Anything else you want to mention before I have you close things out with a coda here at the end?
Katherine Palmer: [00:28:17] No, I just I want to thank you for the time and for the conversation. It’s always interesting to chat with you, and thanks for all of the good work you do in sharing how important music making is in our collective lives.
Mindy Peterson: [00:28:29] My pleasure. Thank you. Well, Katie, as you know, I ask all my all my guests to close out our conversation with a musical ending a coda by sharing a song or story about a moment that music enhanced your life. Do you have a song or story that you can share with us in closing today?
Katherine Palmer: [00:28:44] Absolutely. You know, in speaking and thinking about Fred Rogers, there was an appearance by Ella Jenkins. She made many appearances on Mister Rogers Neighborhood, but the one that always resonates with me and sticks with me is when she visited and she did a children’s song, Head and Shoulders. And I think this is particularly timely because because Ella just passed recently and so it’s been sitting with me, both her great influence and of course, Fred’s great influence and how we carry this work together. But on the show in this episode, she is teaching Fred head and shoulders. And usually when we think head and shoulders, a lot of people think head, shoulders, knees and toes. Right. Yeah. She’s doing a different version. She’s doing head and shoulders, baby. One. Two, three. And so Fred is caught just a little off guard and can’t keep up. And so I don’t know if you’ve watched this clip yet, but it is worth checking out. And he just sort of loses his way and laughs through it. And the story I heard was that, you know, this was recorded and they watched it back. The producers watched it back and everyone laughed and said, okay, let’s do it again. And Fred said, no, it’s perfect just the way it is. And he, he really modeled, um, trying but just not quite hitting the mark and in some ways modeled failure. And, um, but fun. And it’s something that I like to carry with me. Certainly with Ella’s passing and both of their legacies coming to life.
Mindy Peterson: [00:30:09] Love that. And yes, you’re so right. I mean, it’s so important for the grown ups and the adults to model self-compassion and humor and being able to laugh at ourselves and model, like you said, failure. And I just messed up, and I’m okay with that. Yeah.
Katherine Palmer: [00:30:29] It’s a good lesson for adults, too.
Mindy Peterson: [00:30:31] It is. Absolutely.
Transcribed by Sonix.ai