Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.
Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson, and this is Enhance Life with Music, where we explore the ways music can make our lives better and spotlight the resources you can use to enhance your life with music. We’re talking today about a heavy topic, but it’s a conversation that I hope will bring encouragement and hope and increase awareness of ways that music can be used and is being used for suicide prevention and awareness. If you’re listening and you or a loved one needs immediate support, call or text 988 for free support 24/7. My guest today is Bryan Kohl. Bryan played a starting role in Mindwise Innovations, with a focus on mental health and suicide prevention. He is a lifelong advocate for innovation and education, and currently serves on the research team and Board of Trustees for the We Are All Music Foundation. Welcome to Enhance Life with music, Bryan.
Bryan Kohl: [00:00:58] Mindy. Thank you. You’re awesome. Thank you.
Mindy Peterson: [00:01:01] Well. Thank you. It’s so good to have you here. I’m really looking forward to this conversation. Even though it is a heavy topic. I’m just so thrilled to discover somebody who’s harnessing the music, the power of music in this really, um, sad, heavy way, but a way that we’ve all been touched by. We’ve all been touched, either directly or indirectly, by suicide. And so really looking forward to hearing how music is being used as a tool for suicide prevention and awareness starting out, I know from your bio that you started your career in the business world, and I was really I’m really intrigued to hear if you can share with us what drew you from that business background to this intersection of music and suicide prevention?
Bryan Kohl: [00:01:49] Um, I many thank you for the question. And I first want to just acknowledge your use of the word hope earlier. I think, you know, as a I’m wired as an eternal optimist. I’m very, very hopeful about things. And I think that that’s the that’s the position from which we we want to have this conversation just imbuing our efforts in that idea of hope, that idea of optimism. We can do this. And we know, we know music can does play a role. To your question, and again, thanks for the question. Yeah, I started I started in quote unquote business. I it’s a it’s a broad, broad, broad subject. But I think more importantly, I grew up reading content materials from my father on organizational development, organizational behavior in the seventh grade. I, I often tell people that I read the DSM three r this is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for at the time it was referred to as mental disorders.
Mindy Peterson: [00:02:54] So not the typical reading material for seventh grader.
Bryan Kohl: [00:02:59] I know, I know, I’ve already.
Mindy Peterson: [00:03:01] Forget Judy Blume or Beverly Cleary!
Bryan Kohl: [00:03:04] But but I but I say that just just because my my father played a huge role in how I thought and continue to think about business. That said, six years ago, six and a half years ago, I met someone, the CEO of a very large nonprofit in Massachusetts who had an idea wanted to reach more lives through program, through suicide prevention programming. And I was consulting the dirty word consulting. I was consulting for him and had really kind of drafted a go to market, a business plan, um, pulling on my business background, built, you know, budget presented to him and his board. And a few weeks after presenting to him and his board, he called me and asked me to lead, mind wise. Um. And never mind. Did I see it coming? When you look back on it, it makes sense that I ended up running an organization focused on suicide prevention, mental health because of the work I had done in in the business world. Again, organizational development, organizational behavior, um, high performing teams, leadership development. Et cetera. Et cetera. So it made sense when he extended that offer. It meant the world to me. I’d be remiss, however, if I didn’t include what really kind of galvanized my decision to join Mindwise. And that was and this is hard to talk about, but but I just I think it’s important that we talk about it. I lost three friends and colleagues, colleagues and dear friends to suicide, and I carried and maybe even to a certain extent, even today, I carry I carry some guilt. How did I not see it coming? We were friends. How did I not know they were struggling? And so, yes, I started in business. But if I’m being really, really honest, I never thought I’d be in this space. But when reflecting on losing three friends to suicide, it. How could I not? How could I not? You know, heed that. I know it sounds silly, but heed that call.
Mindy Peterson: [00:05:31] And that’s what it was. It doesn’t sound silly at all. And, you know, kudos for you to you for recognizing that pull and not just stuffing it and ignoring it, which I think could be really easy for us to do because they’re uncomfortable thoughts in terms of the discomfort, of maybe feeling guilt, the discomfort of change. So kudos to you for not ignoring that and being open to acting on it.
Bryan Kohl: [00:05:58] I think I think what I found again now here’s the here’s the optimism, right? What I found so encouraging was at the time, this is about six years ago, suicide prevention efforts. We were so focused on fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade high school colleges, universities, let’s say, you know, fifth grade up through, you know, young adult. But the tide was turning. I mean, Mindy, my my grandparents would whisper cancer. They would not use the word cancer. They would say cancer. So the tide was turning in terms of our willingness to have these conversations, these conversations around quote unquote, mental health, quote unquote, mental illness, suicide, suicide prevention. There was far more of a of an openness to have those conversations. My point being that I immediately recognized that we could should we were obligated to do more work in the workplace. Let’s go to the workplace. Let’s go and have these conversations with large organizations, knowing that it was the mothers, the fathers, the guardians, the aunts, the uncles, the grandparents in the workplace that needed these conversations as well.
Mindy Peterson: [00:07:23] Moving beyond just those young people.
Bryan Kohl: [00:07:25] Totally, totally. And I mean that that I mean, I just found so much meaning while recognizing, yes, we have to have these conversations upstream well into, in some cases, elementary school. But we can’t ignore can’t ignore the stigma that exists across those who are maybe in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and beyond. So knowing we could play a role.
Mindy Peterson: [00:07:54] Yeah, that’s interesting to hear that suicide awareness and prevention efforts really started for young people, and that the older population is, is equally sort of at risk. And it just brings to mind, I know the outgoing surgeon general really talked about the crisis in our country and globally of loneliness for for adults and young people both, and just the importance of recognizing that and addressing it. And in addition to that, as I age, I’m hearing more and more about conditions that tend to affect older people, including women who are going through menopause and how women at that age during that time are exponentially more prone to death by suicide, and how the changes in hormones can affect depression and and really trigger depression and things like that. So it’s really interesting to hear that.
Bryan Kohl: [00:08:51] There are so many populations, some underserved populations. There are so many groups, whether it’s, you know, women experiencing, you know, moving through menopause, whether it’s, you know, middle aged men, we can go on and on and on. And, you know, the surgeon general and the CDC has done a wonderful job and kind of helping quantify and provide guidance on how to address, I think what’s important, at least what. For me, the epiphany was that mental health is a continuum. And you got your good days, you got your bad days. It is a continuum. And if we if we understand that how mental health shows up as a continuum throughout our entire life, I think it opens our minds. It allows us easier access to these conversations. It helped facilitates these conversations. Mental health is on a continuum and regardless of where you are. More reason to have these conversations and by doing so, it normalizes words like anxiety, depression, suicide. It helps us understand that suicide is multi-factored to die by suicide. It’s impossible to point to one specific cause issue, whatever. It’s multi-factored. So more reason for us to really focus on. And I don’t want to I don’t want to get ahead of ourselves. But I really appreciate the work that Doctor Amon is doing around. Kind of. He refers to it as the end of mental illness, focusing on the brain. How do we better understand brain health?
Mindy Peterson: [00:10:46] Are you talking about Daniel Amen?
Bryan Kohl: [00:10:47] Daniel Amen. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Big, big, big fan of the work that that he does. Yeah. Um. And more so. Or I should, more specifically by forcing us to focus on the brain as an organ. That’s the issue with mental health is it’s amorphous. You know, we can’t see it. We don’t. We can’t touch it. So we can talk about it. And some of us can talk about it better than others. But for us to really start thinking about the brain as an organ. And here’s where music ties in. A lot of other efforts tie in. But if we focus on the brain as the organ, I’m far more hopeful and optimistic that we can we can kind of make the change. We can understand what’s happening in the brain and then make make the necessary change, whether that’s through prevention, intervention or, God forbid, someone die by suicide. The postvention efforts.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:39] Sure. When you talk about that continuum of mental health, that it just reminds me, too, of how important it is for all of us to be aware of where we are at any given time on that continuum, and have tools that are at our disposal that we know how to use and implement at various stages to kind of help us through some of those different times at different places on that continuum. Well, I want to get into the power of music as an intervention in this space and how it can be applied in this space. Tell us a little bit about how music has been used effectively to raise awareness about mental health and suicide prevention. Are there particular songs or artists that have made a significant impact in breaking the stigma and spreading awareness?
Bryan Kohl: [00:12:26] It’s fascinating to me that, you know, when when you look into when you dig into the the research around, excuse me, Mindy, I’m getting over the flu. So.
Mindy Peterson: [00:12:36] Sure.
Bryan Kohl: [00:12:36] Yeah, I might. There might be a cough or two.
Mindy Peterson: [00:12:39] So we’ve all been there.
Bryan Kohl: [00:12:40] You and your listeners, please, please forgive the occasional cough. Um 2017 there was a musician by the name of logic that that came out with a song. The title of the song was the 800 number for the time, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. And that song really resonated, resonated in a way where at the time Doctor John Draper was running or playing a huge role with the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, which is now 908. Um, and he he has acknowledged that when that song came out, more specifically when logic performed that song at the MTV VMA Award or Video Music Awards show that the lifeline saw an increase in calls. And as a result, Doctor Draper and others are convinced, confident that as a result, it’s saved lives. So it’s.
Mindy Peterson: [00:13:42] And for listeners who aren’t familiar, explain a little bit more what this song is. The full title was the full what 12 digit phone number at the time, which is now simplified to 988.
Bryan Kohl: [00:13:54] 1-800-273-8255 was the name of the song and it was Logic. Was a is a musician rapper and it it just for whatever reason at the time resonated with listeners, ran up the charts and.
Mindy Peterson: [00:14:10] It was about an individual who called the number and said that he no longer wants to live. And the call really was a turning point in his life, gave him the tools to kind of help him in his current and future crises.
Bryan Kohl: [00:14:25] The song itself was a use case. The song itself was a use case for, at the time, the lifeline. And, you know, it’s hard. It’s hard not listening to the song even today. And it’s hard not, you know, choking up a little, you know, you hear, you can hear in him the struggle and then the resolve, the resilience. So I think more more to the point that the lifeline was able to quantify an increase in calls and as a result, very, very confident that lives were saved. So, so significant increase.
Mindy Peterson: [00:15:04] Like we’re not talking about 1 or 2%. I’m, I read that. Well, there was actually a study done on the effect right by the British Medical Journal.
Bryan Kohl: [00:15:12] Yeah, about 7%, 7% increase in calls. There are some that will say closer to 20%. But, you know, an uptick in calls equals saved lives. I bring that up because so much of the research kind of that was the stake in the ground, the stake in the ground to say, hey, there’s something here from a prevention and from an intervention perspective, that was an intervention. Calling the lifeline was an intervention. Lives were saved as a result. So that said, there’s a lot of other research. We know the role music plays. We know the tools to your use of the word tools earlier. We know what tools, what evidence based tools work. We have nearing 10,000 music therapists across the country. God bless them all. 10,000 music therapists across the country that know this all too well. So, um, anyway, I’m optimistic. The research certainly suggests that music plays a role both in prevention intervention as well as in postvention efforts. Postvention those events that occur following an unfortunate suicide in a community, family, wherever church, wherever synagogue.
Mindy Peterson: [00:16:36] Tell us some more about like Explain what makes music such a powerful medium for connecting with people struggling with suicidal thoughts? I mean, I certainly have a lot of thoughts on this, and there’s been a lot of guests who have talked about how music is so unique and connecting, but I’m interested in hearing your perspective on why music. Why is music such a powerful medium for connecting with people in this way?
Bryan Kohl: [00:17:01] I think it’s it’s important for your listeners to know that, that I’m not a music therapist. I’m not a psychologist. I’m not a suicidologist. I’m someone that has experienced loss. I am someone that deeply, deeply, deeply loves, appreciates, feels, feels music much like your listeners. I’m also someone that is kind of determined to normalize these types of conversations, to normalize our prevention, intervention, postvention efforts. So I just I think it’s just important for your listeners to know that, that I’m just someone who doesn’t care about making a difference for himself, wants to make a difference in this space. Um, to answer your question, we kind of know, don’t we? We we all know the role music plays in our lives. I can’t help because it’s who I am. I can’t help but ask why? Why does music do what it does? And then as a result, how might we then use music? So for me, it always starts with with why? What’s going on in our brain? What is it about our communities through which music resonates plays such a role? So when we think about music, things like identity discovery, things like self and emotional discovery, that expression, our ability to express ourselves through music, community building. You know, maybe later we’ll talk a little bit about enriched environments and the role enriched environments play through a neuroscientific perspective. And the framework and enriched environment provides. Think back to this is your brain on music and how music memory plays a role. So all of this, whether it’s through self-identity, self-expression, community building, music memory, those are phenomena and tools we experience as young as three years old and carry with us until the day we die. So again, more reason for us to understand why. Why does that work? And then digging in and trying to create program tools that specifically addresses anxiety, depression, PTSD, other mental conditions.
Mindy Peterson: [00:19:36] Yeah. One thing I’ve heard numerous guests talk about, too, and this certainly is easy for any of us to relate to, is the fact that when we hear songs about people who are also experiencing some of the emotions or situations that we’re in, we feel like we’re not alone. You know, we’re not the only ones who have experienced these feelings and this trauma. Like, I’m not alone. You’re you’re.
Bryan Kohl: [00:20:03] Awesome. You’re awesome. Yes, yes. For me. For me like that. Like I look, I’m not I’m not smart enough to come up with and really understand what’s happening in the brain. But the experts call that mood congruency. And that that is exactly what it is. Mood congruency. When we and and some will also refer to this as perhaps one of music’s most powerful coping mechanism. Mood congruency exactly as you defined it for me to find solace in knowing that someone else is experiencing what I’m experiencing. Yeah, quite possibly the most important coping mechanism of music.
Mindy Peterson: [00:20:46] Mhm. Well, and referring back to our earlier comment about loneliness being epidemic in our country here in the US, but also globally, we can feel like that loneliness is relieved, some alleviated somehow by almost feeling like we have this personal connection with the artist who’s singing, even though we’re just hearing this digitally. We kind of feel like this is our friend somehow. Like we we have a person, we have someone there. So that’s really neat. The other comment that I want to insert here too, is one of my early podcast guests, Steve Siler. I’ll put a link in the show notes to my conversation with him. He talked about something in the interview that just hit me between the eyes. And I’ve never forgotten it. And he and I and you were not scientists. We’re not PhDs. But again, this is something that totally resonates with me and completely makes sense. Steve was talking about an experience that he had. He was providing music at a retreat for women who had experienced sexual assault and abuse and trauma, and he was told ahead of time going in, these women are not going to want to be touched. So don’t just, like, go up and give them a hug or something, you know, just, you know, heads up. And so he was very respectful of that. At one point in the retreat, he was playing a song and singing the song.
Mindy Peterson: [00:22:14] And it was, I believe, called Innocent Child. And it was a story about a woman, a child who experienced sexual assault. And it’s a very powerful song. He finished playing and turned around to see women lined up to give him a hug, crying, saying, I’ve heard these words spoken to me so many times by loved ones. I’ve read these words, but somehow hearing you sing these words impacted me on a deep level that I can’t explain and has never happened before. Like, this is the first time they’ve really sunk in and it’s it’s really made a difference for me. And I can really internalize these and act on them. And he was and they wanted to give him a hug. And he was just like, wow, what just what just happened here? And he did some digging into it and discovered that trauma resides in the same part, the same hemisphere of the brain that is process that processes melody. And the other side of the brain is what processes words. And so being able to have this melody accompany words, it’s like the brain is able to process this more fully and more comprehensively and really have it sink in. So again, a scientist would be able to explain this much more fluently. I’ll put a link in the show notes to Steve’s explanation of that. But it just again, like I said, hit me between the eyes.
Bryan Kohl: [00:23:47] When we think. I mean, I love that. I love that that story, I it reminds me of an experience I had where while I’m not a, I’m not a musician, I had an opportunity to co-write. So in real time. And this is one of many tools that music therapists use. But in real time, I was talking through an experience, um, and the musician was creating music as we were moving through it. And I have to say that it’s the first time I really understood frozen. Frozen is that sensation you get, you know, the the goosebumps. When you hear a song and and you can kind of feel it to your core, but also the dopamine rush, that reward system, the brain’s reward system, and how powerful that reward system is when it comes to kind of emotional cognitive benefits that in that moment, experiencing that real time, my brain processing my own words, but more importantly, the music that the musician was crafting in real time. It just it was, was was, well, for lack of a better word, profound. The the point you made, though, about loneliness and kind of a lack of connection, that report you’re referring to, per the CDC. I think it’s something that for it’s something that all of us should be thinking about. And I don’t want to I don’t want to make this a conversation about social media, social media and adolescence, social media and Teenagers, but I think we’d all agree that something something’s amiss. And what we do know is it is exacerbating that sense of loneliness and that lack of connection. So while while we do sense that connection with the song, the musician itself, himself herself, to be able to extend that experience to a community, as the musician did in your story, to extend that to the community. That’s, I think, where where I’m hoping more effort happens.
Mindy Peterson: [00:25:59] Yeah, absolutely. Well, and to back up just a little bit, I’m glad you mentioned that dopamine response, because that does speak to the fact that music does create physiological changes in, in us, in our brain going back to the brain. Um, so I think it’s important to, to hit on that and, and recognize the physiological changes that happen as well as sort of the emotional responses that happen and psychological too. In fact, speaking of the psychological response and the impact of music. I brought in some of the information that you had, I think, on your website, the Papageno Effect. Am I saying that right?
Bryan Kohl: [00:26:39] Papageno effect yeah.
Mindy Peterson: [00:26:40] Okay. Tell us. Explain what that is.
Bryan Kohl: [00:26:42] Excuse me. So there are, there are. Think of this as kind of two effects. Were there effect in Papageno effect. Papageno effect is a deliberate attempt by media when discussing addressing suicide, to focus more on life saving efforts than focusing on, say, the suicide itself. The Werther effect is the exact opposite. The Werther effect is when media drills into and discusses the suicide, perhaps more than it should. So Papageno effect and you know, I think fortunately we’re seeing we’re seeing more and more of this. Media now knows in a way that it didn’t know. You know, understand media now understands today that it didn’t understand five, ten, certainly 20, 30, 50 years ago. But it’s far more effective, for obvious reasons, to talk about life saving efforts upon the loss of a life.
Mindy Peterson: [00:27:47] Yeah. So that logic song that we were talking about earlier is a great example of that Papageno effect, where the mass media really can influence awareness and prevention by being responsible in how they’re presenting alternatives and focusing on hope and resilience and overcoming versus focusing on and sometimes in some cases, even glorifying suicide, which is more that that Werther effect.
Bryan Kohl: [00:28:16] And that and keep in mind media, um, that that is extended to media to include music to include absolutely no video. All. All media modalities. Yes.
Mindy Peterson: [00:28:28] Film, TV, social media, all of it. Yes. Well, tell us, are there any current developments in this area of music as a tool in suicide awareness and prevention? I know we talked about logic and that song, which is so impactful. That was in 2017. Um, any current developments in this space and how do you see the role of music evolving in the future in these efforts?
Bryan Kohl: [00:28:52] We’ve just recently and I’m happy to to share this, this article that we are on music co-wrote with Sounds of Savings, as well as the Music and Auditory Research Lab at NYU. Again, it’s where I come from. I like I ask the the word why. Why is this happening? What what’s happening in the brain? Why is the brain responding, reacting the way it is? And what I’ll say is I’m I think for me, what’s most optimistic or hopeful about some of the research that’s coming out of the neurosciences is this idea. I referenced it earlier. It’s this idea of enriched environments and just understanding how a human engages its environment, as well as the sensory, motor, cognitive, social components of that environment. Now we know this, and I’m stating I’m not there’s there’s no rocket science here. But I think in understanding better, understanding the brain’s response in those environments allows us to use an enriched environment as a framework, as a framework for new tools, practices, potential protocols, etc.. So I know that that’s that’s high level, but but really grounding continued research in that quote unquote enriched environment, I think is really, really important. That said, I think you alluded to this earlier.
Bryan Kohl: [00:30:25] So much starts with changing the conversation from what’s wrong with you to what happened to you. Now that that is that is taking on a far more kind of trauma informed position on how we have these conversations. So music teachers, music therapists, taking a far more trauma informed approach, I think, really allows us to get to better understanding anxiety, depression, some of the other conditions we’ve referenced earlier. Music itself, we talked a little bit about that earlier, but creating safe spaces to listen and have conversations around music, focusing on the process, if we’re if we’re in a process of making music. The example I used earlier about my lyrics, coupled with musicians music focusing on the process of making music and less the product don’t need the perfect song, so focusing on the process and understanding how that why that process works for so many people, and more importantly, figuring out ways so that more people can experience that process. Guided listening, really digging into lyrics and understanding lyrics and having those conversations. Again, Mindy, these aren’t these are things that so many of us are already doing. But how do we scale these efforts and bring these tools, processes, methodologies to more people?
Mindy Peterson: [00:32:01] Well, and even if we’re already doing them, we may not be aware that we’re actually doing this. So just being aware of the fact that, oh, when I feel upset about X, Y, and Z, I do this and it’s helpful. It makes me feel better, you know? So just recognizing that I think can be really helpful for people.
Bryan Kohl: [00:32:19] That, that that is that’s all a part of normalizing the conversation. So it’s one thing to normalize the conversation around anxiety depression. Yeah, really really, really mental health. But but normalizing those types of questions, those realizations that oh yes, absolutely. Every time I listen to this song, why is it that I feel so connected to this song? It’s okay to ask the question why and then extend that conversation to others with others. Again, no rocket science, but how do we facilitate more of these conversations? How do we bring these products, these tools, methodologies to more people? Um, how do we do a better job of partnering as music therapists, music teachers, teachers, coaches? How do we do a better job of shedding light on why music works and then, more importantly, how to use music in certain situations.
Mindy Peterson: [00:33:19] Yeah, a lot of that population that you just mentioned, they are sort of frontline workers. They end up filling that role of psychologists and counselor, even though they’re not necessarily usually not trained in that. But just because of the nature of music, they it causes people to open up. It causes people to feel things. And it’s been said that music is the sound of emotions. And so a lot of these music teachers, private instructors, you know, whatever it is, artists end up sort of filling that role. And so kind of helping them and provide them some tools of what to do in those situations is huge.
Bryan Kohl: [00:33:58] I’m I’m determined. You know, we are all music is determined to, to do exactly that. There are so many, so many great efforts being made across the country, across the globe.
Mindy Peterson: [00:34:12] How tell us a little bit about We Are All Music. I know we could have an entire episode on that. And we’ve already gone over and I’m just like, you know what? This is such an important conversation. This is just going to be one that’s going to go over. But tell us, tell us just a little bit about the We Are All Music Foundation, also known as WAM.
Bryan Kohl: [00:34:30] Um, right. So Mindy, forgive me. I didn’t mean to segue there, but but.
Mindy Peterson: [00:34:35] No, that’s perfect.
Bryan Kohl: [00:34:36] To talk about. Happy to talk about WAM. Um, you know, we been around for for quite a few years. Um, we were, you know, started as a foundation and awfully, awfully proud of, you know, the grantees, the grants that we’ve been able to provide over the, you know, the last five, six, seven years. You know, we’ve provided grants, funding for great organizations like guitars over guns, hip hop, public health, great organizations that in their communities are using music to drive change. Remarkable, remarkable work. I’ll just I’ll leave it at. Leave it at that. Okay. We are all music also has a kind of a research bent. We’ve got something called a music Impact Research Centre. So we look at a ton of research on the confluence of music and fill in the blank music and mental health, music and suicide prevention, music and Alzheimer’s music and sleep. You know, music in social justice. Really, really, really just trying to be an aggregator and kind of help derive meaning from so much of the research that’s being done across the globe.
Mindy Peterson: [00:35:54] So aggregate and disseminate, you know, and increase awareness and make that available in one spot to people who want to learn more.
Bryan Kohl: [00:36:02] We also we also partner with, you know, organizations I mentioned earlier, sounds of savings. This is a small nonprofit in New York, Brooklyn, that does great work in high schools and colleges around suicide prevention efforts. Okay. Um, the the Music and Auditory Research Lab at NYU, led by Doctor Rapolas does does great work to better understand again what’s happening in the brain. I love doctor. Doctor has a quote. He says, capitalize on music to shape cognition and capitalize on cognition to shape music. Uh, I read that quote I wanted. I wanted to get that right. I love, I love. So that gives you a really good idea of kind of what what they’re thinking. Yeah. Um, but but, you know, we are all music. I’ll share with you that, you know, we’re, as most organizations, you know, we’re in kind of growth mode, but also realizing the the growing need and the opportunity to do what I said earlier, reach more. How do we reach more lives? How do we better partner with organizations so that we can bring those tools, methodologies, process to to those in need to include music teachers? Mindy, like yourself, music therapists, teachers, coaches, parents, guardians. Et cetera, et cetera. So I, um, if I while I sit on the board and a volunteer volunteer capacity. If I could spend the rest of my life focused on nothing. But we’re all music. I’d be, um, I don’t know. I’d love it.
Mindy Peterson: [00:37:51] Mhm. Well, you sort of answered my next question a little bit, which is are there any organizations or initiatives or programs that you can recommend to listeners who do want to learn more about this topic or additional resources like books, websites. So you talked about sound saving. Sound saving is.
Bryan Kohl: [00:38:11] Sounds of saving.
Mindy Peterson: [00:38:12] Sounds of saving. Of course. Wams website. There will be for sure a link in the show notes to that because there is tons of information articles like you mentioned on various topics, including music and suicide prevention and other resources that you want to mention.
Bryan Kohl: [00:38:28] When you’re when you’re on the the WAM site, you know, take a look at some of our grantees. They’re doing phenomenal work, you know, in and across their communities. Um, other organizations certainly mind wise innovations, mind wise innovations, the organization I played a role in standing up a little over six years ago. Um, they do quite a bit of work around suicide prevention through their kind of evidence based programs. Um, I also, you know, just look up and learn more about your local music therapists, give them a call, give them a hug, you know, pull them in, pull them in. You know, we’ve got you know where I’m where I’m based outside of Boston. There’s a wonderful organization called Roman Music Therapy. And I mean, they’re doing some of the some of the best work I’ve seen. So just reach out, give your music a teachers, music therapists a hug, and let’s all figure out a way to better scale their efforts and provide each and every one of us with, again, some of the tools and methodologies and processes that we’ve discussed today.
Mindy Peterson: [00:39:43] Um, before I close, I just want to ask you one more question that I’m kind of haunted by something that you said earlier in our conversation, and that is you had these friends who died by suicide, and you felt like I was close to them. Why didn’t I see this coming? Are there any signs of suicide risk or ideation that you can tell us about that we can be watching for in friends or loved ones.
Bryan Kohl: [00:40:12] It’s, um. It’s so much easier now. When I look back, there were there were signs, and some of those signs were, um, changes in behavior. Um, there was, you know, for, for two of my friends, they had never, ever exhibited depression. But there were moments where suddenly they didn’t want to go out, they didn’t want to spend time. And, you know, we we at the time just kind of chalked that up to, okay, not feeling well or just not in the mood. Um, but that had become a pattern and we just didn’t recognize the pattern at the time. I had another dear friend who and this is this is a very, very common tale of someone who is considering suicide. And we had a friend who started giving his things away, and it pains me to know how much of a tell that is and to not have not recognized it then. But he started giving things away to include a motorcycle, to include so many of the things that he prided himself on owning tools, garage type items, and he just suddenly started giving things away. And that I think, um, again, I wish, I wish I knew what that meant. I wish I knew how to how to have interpreted it then. But behavior change increased, you know, depression, mood swings, dramatic mood swings. And then, um, again, this friend of mine who started giving his things away, and that was his way of Saying he had made the decision and he was moving on.
Mindy Peterson: [00:42:13] Well, thank you so much for sharing all of this with us. Thanks for being generous with your time with me going over here. Uh, such an important topic and such, uh, fascinating and I think encouraging conversation. And I hope that listeners also find that it brings hope and and inspiration to them. You know, Bryan, that I ask all my guests to close out our conversation with a musical ending, a coda by sharing a song or story about a moment that music enhanced your life. Is there a song or a story that you can share with us today? In closing.
Bryan Kohl: [00:42:50] Mindy, I know you’re you’re in Minnesota, so you’re familiar with highway 61. Highway 61 runs from the south and terminates in Duluth, Minnesota. My parents lived outside of Duluth for a number of years, and three years ago my father was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and we all know what that usually means. And having grown up with music, my father was a composer. He had started his own music production company called Quiet Mind Productions. Music was was central core core to, to our lives. So as my father was, was dying, we, um, we spent the last month and a half, 24 hours a day listening to music. And my father having been the world’s biggest Bob Dylan fan, there was a reason they lived north of Duluth, off of highway 61, because of Dylan’s song highway 61 revisited. So it just brings me so much peace and solace knowing that we listened to so much music as my father was dying, and then for my father in his final few hours, to listen to nothing but Bob Dylan and to eventually die in the hospital. Bob Dylan was born just. I mean, come on, Mindy. It doesn’t get better.
Mindy Peterson: [00:44:21] That’s full circle. That’s amazing.
Bryan Kohl: [00:44:24] So the song, you know, the code of the song highway 61 revisited for my father, who was the world’s biggest Bob Dylan fan, who, um, I think for me, having music throughout the last six weeks, knowing the peace, the solace he found in that music to include the new music his grandchildren were listening to and the the curiosity and the vigor he used to listen to that music was, um, awe inspiring and led me to question what more music can do throughout hospice care, throughout end of life efforts.
Transcribed by Sonix.ai