Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.
Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson, and this is Enhance Life with Music, where we explore the ways music can make our lives better and spotlight the resources you can use to enhance your life with music. If you’ve listened to this podcast for long, you probably know that I love books and love reading. I love chatting with authors about their books, especially new releases and also timeless classics. Today’s guest is the author of a new release, and there were two things about his new book that immediately caught my attention. I’ll describe those in a moment. But first, my guest today is joining me from Cleveland, Ohio. Thomas Morris had a 50 year career in the music business that included leadership of the Boston Symphony and Cleveland Orchestra. He is in demand internationally as a consultant, teacher and writer, most recently of the book we’re talking about today that released in the fall. It’s called Always the Music: how a lifelong passion framed a future for orchestras. Welcome to Enhance Life with Music. Tom.
Tom Morris: [00:01:07] Mindy, my great pleasure to join you.
Mindy Peterson: [00:01:10] Well, Tom, I loved your book. It was sort of like this state of the industry reflection after your 50 year career in the music world. And there’s so much content. But like I said, there are a couple of things that really caught my attention about your book. The first thing, and I’m sure we’ll refer to this throughout our conversation, but you point out in the book that our orchestra model was established in the early 1900s, and it hasn’t really changed a whole lot since then, in spite of the fact that there’s been major changes during that time to things like music education and schools, the competitive landscape of entertainment options that consumers have, consumer access to, music on demand, not to mention a global pandemic that’s happened, you know, more recently. So that was one thing that really caught my attention. Like, wow, that has been 100 plus years of this remarkably unchanged model of the orchestra. A second thing that really caught my attention intrigued me is one of the endorsements of your book was by Jim Collins, who is famous for his best selling business books, including Good to Great and Built to Last. I’m a huge fan of interdisciplinary learning and collaboration, and the music world and the academic world can both be pretty siloed. So when I saw that there was a Jim Collins endorsement on a nonprofit orchestra book, that really caught my attention. Jim and his endorsement says if there is one book to read about music, one book that captures the human alchemy that makes a great orchestra or festival tick, this is it. So it’s quite, quite a testimonial there. And in reading the book, I book, I saw that he urged you to write this book. You include an entire chapter on meeting Jim. Your friendship with him and how his insights informed your work in the music world. So explain to listeners how this connection with Jim came to be.
Tom Morris: [00:03:11] Sure. Um, I’m a I’m a curious fellow, and I had spent the first sort of two thirds of my career running the Boston Symphony and the Cleveland Orchestra. And towards the end of my Cleveland period, starting, I think, around 1996 or 97, I became increasingly sort of interested in thinking about sort of the management, leadership and organizational challenges of these organizations in a broader context. I’ve always been somewhat of a student of, you know, business literature, but I emphasize somewhat, um, because what I don’t like is jargon laden treatises on how to manage and how to how to lead. And I came across an article in the Harvard Business Review, I think it was 1997, about vision. Institutional vision, organizational vision by Jim Collins and another fellow, Jerry Porras. The two of them had written a book recently called Built to Last, a best selling book that basically was all about how you build enduring organizations. And I found this article in the Harvard Business Review spoke to me very, very deeply. You know, that I’m really interested, particularly in the cultural world and these of these great musical institutions, in the whole question of vision. But vision is is a is a gooey concept. You know, what is it you know and and how do you really make it work as a, as a working concept and a construct for running an organization? And this article framed a way of doing that which spoke to me. And it basically is the premise that if you want to know and outline where you want to go, that’s what people think of as vision. You know, where are you going to go in the future that you can’t really do that without understanding where you are first? So it’s this sort of this notion of what are the what are the fundamental, uh, definitions of who you are and what do you stand for, which are unchanging? And against that, where do you want to go? And by the way, how will you know when you get there?
Mindy Peterson: [00:05:53] Yeah.
Tom Morris: [00:05:54] And and, uh, and that’s, that’s the model in, in very simple terms. And that just struck me as remarkably insightful and helpful and, and I think usable. And, and so I decided, gee, let’s see if we can apply that to the work we were doing at the Cleveland Orchestra. And the Cleveland Orchestra is a, you know, is a successful organization. And, uh, but still, you know, you have to have some notion of where you’re going to where you’re trying to take it. And so we embarked on a year and a half sort of project on the staff of to see if we could apply the model and come up with a, with a vision statement. And one of Colin’s premises also is if it’s if it’s going to be real, it has to it has to go to the very essence of, you know, what your purpose is. It’s not a list of things to do. It’s what do you stand for? And really, why do you exist? Yeah, and the whole vision statement you have to put on one piece of paper.
Mindy Peterson: [00:06:59] Yeah.
Tom Morris: [00:07:00] You know, so, so it’s, it’s, you know, by definition, there’s just no room for jargon.
Mindy Peterson: [00:07:06] Yeah. Well, that was one thing I think that attracted you to that article. Yeah. Is that it wasn’t full of just the usual jargon that you encountered in business articles.
Tom Morris: [00:07:16] And it was and it was a useful concept. And we so we, you know, we we developed this. And in the course of my work in applying this, I reached out to Jim to, you know, to say that I had really enjoyed this and I was trying to apply it. And he responded and we started corresponding. Turns out he’s a music lover, and he was sort of intrigued with how to apply this to a not for profit world.
Mindy Peterson: [00:07:46] Yeah.
Tom Morris: [00:07:47] And, and and it ultimately led to I was involved in inviting him to give a keynote speech to the League of American Orchestras annual conference. And in about I think it was 2000. He actually came to Cleveland for a weekend to hear concerts and participated in one of our final sort of staff sessions and trying to refine this vision statement. And it was just all a remarkable meeting. Uh, Jim, is he always says that he is not very good at providing answers, but he’s world class at asking questions.
Mindy Peterson: [00:08:25] And you said in your book that it’s almost exhausting to be around him because he’s constantly asking why?
Tom Morris: [00:08:31] That’s right. Yeah. When you you know, when you say something. I mean, he’s he’s always pushing us and I deeply admire. And anyways, out of all this, um, we became very good friends, and we’re in frequent touch. I see him, you know, every six months or so go out and visit him and he comes here. Um, and so we’ve become very good friends and we’re constantly, you know, talking about what we’re up to. Um, yeah, I’ve read I’ve been a critical reader for some of his writings. Um, he, uh, he was early in urging me to write something before I was really. I really thought I could try and do it. Um, and what’s what was really. I think the best part of all of it is after he wrote Good to Great, he was so intrigued with how the concepts in that book, uh, applied or not, to the not for profit world that he produced a monograph called Good to Great for the Social Sectors.
Mindy Peterson: [00:09:39] Yes. I found that fascinating. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, it was really I it sounds like his work with you and those nonprofits that really led to the creation of that supplemental publication.
Tom Morris: [00:09:51] Yeah. And so it’s been, um, he’s a hugely important person in my life. Um, because, you know, at this juncture, I was approaching this juncture in my work with the Cleveland Orchestra that I knew I was going to be leaving. I think it’s terribly important when you have a leadership job in the not for profit world, that you don’t overstay your welcome. Mhm. You know, you know when to leave. And I knew that something else was, was going to beckon. Um and so he really helped provide a much broader context for how I was thinking about things. That paved the way for I finally, when I retired from the Cleveland Orchestra, you know, 20 years ago in 2004. He was at my side cheerleading and, uh, you know, go for it. Go for it, you know. You know, it’s think of what’s important. Um, don’t hang on to the past. You know, go for the future. And his things then, you know, fell into my lap, uh, going to the Ojai Music Festival as the artistic director. It was Jim, you know, who understood that and encouraged me. I did a lot of teaching. He helped with that. It’s just been a great friend and mentor.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:15] Yeah, well, a couple of things that you mentioned very casually that I just want to highlight, because I don’t think it’s something to gloss over, is number one, you encountered Jim’s work by reading an article in the Harvard Business Review, which I don’t know how many leaders of nonprofit orchestras are reading Harvard Business Review, but I think that speaks volume. I mean, I do, and I am such a fan of interdisciplinary learning, and I feel that different industries can offer so much to one another. I mean, any musician who’s listening to this is probably aware of how much, as musicians, we’ve been able to benefit from sports psychology in terms of performance strategies, and there’s been so many ways that business leaders and other industries have been able to benefit from the creativity of musicians, whether it’s engineers who are also musicians or, you know, other, other ways. So that’s the one thing I want to point out. Second thing I want to point out that you just casually mentioned is that you reached out to Jim and contacted him. And I think that so often we we don’t it doesn’t even occur to us to do something like that. And people are thrilled to be able to help out, you know, and to be able to help transfer their advice to other areas and thrilled that people are getting something out of it. That’s why people write books and so well. But not many people take that effort and take that initiative to reach out in that way.
Tom Morris: [00:12:39] But also, you know, Jim was genuinely fascinated with this world. One of his premises that he uncovered in the good to great study is that, you know, money with really, really great, successful organizations. And again, Jim’s study was the difference between great organizations and merely good ones. Not good and bad, but great versus good. I mean, it’s it’s a really critical distinction. Yeah. And it has, I think just thinking about the difference between really great and merely good is a concept that in the arts, where you’re always striving for excellence, you really have to understand what are the hallmarks that make things really distinctive and great. And Jim was fascinated with with that, with the not for profit world. And he, in his work for the good to great study, pointed out that that money is is really more of a strategy than a goal.
Mindy Peterson: [00:13:51] Yes, that was fascinating to read that. Yeah.
Tom Morris: [00:13:54] And and that, in fact, you know, it’s it’s the commitment to an overarching vision for the future that distinguishes great commercial companies. Well, that translates perfectly to the not for profit world.
Mindy Peterson: [00:14:09] Oh, totally.
Tom Morris: [00:14:10] You know, and I think when he did the monograph for the social sectors, he and I were in, in very close contact. And I remember at the very beginning we were talking about what are the similarities between the for profit and the not for profit world in terms of using this model. And we quickly came to the conclusion that it’s not what’s similar, it’s what’s dissimilar that you have to focus on. Um, and that’s where he talked in the monograph, uh, that in the not for profit world, you know, you can’t measure everything by money, but you what you do do is you build evidence of success. You know, what are the how do you how do you know you’re successful in the not for profit world? And I know lots of not for profits, which are very successful from a financial standpoint, but not very successful from a conceptual content.
Mindy Peterson: [00:15:09] Yeah. Well, back to your point about vision. And the vision is knowing how do we know if we’ve achieved it?
Tom Morris: [00:15:16] That’s right. That’s right. So so, Jim, what Jim has been an enormous friend of mine. I mean, I to back up a minute, you know, when I decided to write this book, the reason I really wrote it was the famous, I call it chapter 11, not bankruptcy, but chapter 11, in the book, which is the the one which is really a think piece about the future of orchestras and the world of music. That’s what I wanted to write, but I, I realized that I couldn’t really write that in a compelling way, because my own views over my career have changed and evolved. And as I thought about that, I all of a sudden realized that there were these individuals in my life that really, frankly, taught me at critical moments. And one of those was Jim Collins.
Mindy Peterson: [00:16:08] Yeah. Well, I like that was one thing that struck me, too, about your book, is that you do talk about your own personal journey and sort of this metamorphosis and how, you know, this is what I thought at this point. But then I came to realize something else. And I like that. You obviously are a very curious person, as you mentioned, as Jim must be. But I like that you’re you’re not afraid to change your mind and learn from what you’re discovering. Back to your point about money being a strategy and not a goal. I know you talked in the book about the impact of that belief on fundraising, which really caught my attention because I do work in my day job with a lot of music faculty who are often fundraising. Most often, in my case, my involvement is when they’re fundraising for a new Steinway piano. But you talk about fundraising is predicated on what is to be supported and like, really talking about why the money is needed and framing that need as the pitch and kind of that supporting this belief that money is a strategy and not a goal. So that was really interesting. The other thing you talk about that really caught my attention, you talked about in your work with the orchestra, in really defining its vision. You came to the conclusion that your reason for being was not Necessarily to put on great concerts. That’s what orchestras do. But it’s not why they do it.
Tom Morris: [00:17:38] Correct.
Mindy Peterson: [00:17:39] And it was really helpful for you to really realize that the goal was defined more by creating transcendent experiences. Correct. And again, the concert was a strategy and not a goal. So.
Tom Morris: [00:17:52] That’s right.
Mindy Peterson: [00:17:53] Yeah.
Tom Morris: [00:17:54] So that’s that’s the I mean, I think as I think it’s really helpful to sort of think conceptually and I like building models. And you have this notion of, you know, a value of a hierarchy of concepts of values, purpose, vision, strategies, tactics, um, and almost most organizations are mired in strategies and tactics.
Mindy Peterson: [00:18:25] Mhm.
Tom Morris: [00:18:26] Um, and also generally think sort of incrementally from the present. And the beauty of the Collins model is you sort of define this bedrock of principles, of what do you stand for and why do you exist? And then you look out ten, 20 years and say, this is what we’d like to be. And then you structure strategies in relation not to the present, but in relationship to where you’re going. So in a funny way, it’s a pulling concept toward the future, not a pushing from the present.
Mindy Peterson: [00:19:04] Hmm.
Tom Morris: [00:19:04] And and I just find that really helpful.
Mindy Peterson: [00:19:08] Yeah. You talk in the book, too, about your work with Interlochen in Michigan, which I’m originally from Michigan, and my parents have lived for 20 some, I don’t know, 30 years, maybe now near Interlochen. So that’s something that definitely caught my attention. Uh, but you you talked about how Interlochen has often cited its purpose and as training young artists. And that’s something that had that they’ve highlighted that for years with their their PR, but it was determined that the vast majority of their alum were not active performers. And so it was really helpful to realize that and kind of conclude that their the reason for their purpose was not necessarily to train artists as defined by people who became famous for performing. Um, it was more sparking enthusiasm for the arts, and a lot of its alum ended up becoming doctors or lawyers or, you know, other vocations. But recognizing the value and having people in those vocations that were informed by the arts and enthusiastic art supporters. So that was really fun to read about.
Tom Morris: [00:20:20] Well, if you and if you think about sort of the whole arts ecosystem, you know, it’s not just made up of performers, I mean the audience and the supporters and the communities, you know, are as important, frankly, to make it work. And and what’s intriguing about Interlochen is it’s really educating all parts of that. So I guess it was when we did that exercise, when I got on the board of Interlochen. And, you know, the story is that one of my early board meetings, the leader said, well, we know it’s time for a big endowment drive. And I raised my hand and said, why? And, uh, well, it’s time. It’s time for an endowment drive. But why? Well, you know, we need the money. I said, well, you won’t succeed. You cannot raise money because you need it. You have to raise your money because it it is going to be there to make something happen that is important for the future that you define. And so so then the question is so what’s the future. And it was it wasn’t clear. So that’s why we embarked. We applied the Collins model at Interlochen in an exercise with the full board over a year and a half, to really try and focus that question. And and then we had the fund drive and of course we exceeded the goal.
Mindy Peterson: [00:21:45] Mhm.
Tom Morris: [00:21:45] Yeah.
Mindy Peterson: [00:21:46] Well you talk a lot about renewal organizations going through it. Um vision what the challenges are and and renewal not just with businesses or organizations but personal renewal too. You talk about applying those elements to individuals. How we develop and grow and reinvent ourselves. And I love how you say in the book, I now see my own journey as one of constant renewal at the core. I have always been a passionate music lover, but how I expressed it evolved. Yeah. And then you go on to talk about, Out, um, how Jim Collins gave you the tools and encouragement to address transformation, to simultaneously, quote, preserve my core value of passion for music and stimulate progress in finding ways to give it life. So I love that.
Tom Morris: [00:22:40] Yeah. Well it’s true. And I, you know, I hadn’t really understood any of that about myself before I wrote the when I wrote the book, I had to sort of think about all that. And what I learned in writing the book is that that I’ve had I’ve had the world’s luckiest career. I mean, I’ve done what I loved, but how it has evolved has actually been the most fascinating thing. And and with all the hindsight of the world now makes total sense to me. Um, I initially thought I wanted okay, I will go into the orchestra management business, and I ended up, you know, very early on in terms of a goal, if you want to be an orchestra manager, you know, it at the very height running these two great, great, great great institutions, and particularly the Cleveland time was an intensely rich one for me because of the amazing creative partnerships that I had with Christoph von Dohnanyi, the music director and particularly the board president at the time, this fellow Ward Smith. There’s a chapter about him. And so it was really when I got to Cleveland that I all of a sudden I understood, you know, having a common vision amongst the leaders and then making it happen, each doing their own part. And I think the Cleveland years were a great example of how that can be very powerful. It’s almost one plus one plus one equals ten.
Tom Morris: [00:24:11] You know, it’s a it’s an amazingly powerful leverage situation. Um, but, you know, I also came to understand And that having positions of power and scale, you know, bigger and bigger and all that, really, they don’t mean much. And and to me, what I discovered that that’s actually not what I, that’s not who I am. What I really am is I’m a musician. And I like making concerts, creating concerts with great artists. And I’m really good at that. And I got and I, you know, I left the executive role and I went from these huge multimillion dollar organizations to the teeny little Ojai Festival, which, you know, actually punches way above its weight in terms of impact artistically because it’s so concentrated. And I focused on purely the artistic side for the last third of my career. And it fundamentally changed how I think about music, because I was all of a sudden, I realized that for 35 years I was in the orchestra world of music. And when you’re running an orchestra, you’re doing orchestral music, and it’s great music, but it’s only a small part of what music is. And I got to Ojai and all of a sudden I was into world music. I was into chamber music, I was into jazz. I was into contemporary music. Huge amount of contemporary music, working with all different kinds of artists. And I just lapped it up.
Mindy Peterson: [00:25:52] Well, you alluded to that chapter 11 orchestra redo. And that was I mean, obviously I love the Jim Collins chapter. This was also one of my favorite chapters. It really draws on everything that you learned over your 50 year career. You reflect on the current state of orchestras and musical creativity. Uh, what recommendations do you have for listeners who are involved in music organizations, whether it’s an orchestra, a music festival, a music department at an institution, what recommendations do you have for those listeners who want to follow your lead and clarifying vision for their nonprofit, Stimulating Renewal? What words of wisdom do you have in addition to reading your book?
Tom Morris: [00:26:38] Um, I mean, the most important message that that I wanted to impart is that the challenges for these organizations, you know, are just so enormous today. Going back to what you said at the very beginning, um, the model for how these organizations are structured today basically is pretty unchanged, but the environment is completely changed. Sure. And so everyone’s struggling. You know, there are enormous financial problems in most organizations. There are enormous audience problems. There are enormous relevance problems, all those things. And I think the fundamental principle to start from, when you think about how to deal with this, is actually with the music. I mean, what is the purpose? Why do these organizations exist? And again, I go right back to what you said when you’re quoting the book that, you know, the purpose of these organizations is not to give good concerts. It’s not to provide employment. It’s not to lead social change. It’s not to, you know, all those things. Those are all maybe subtexts here and there, but it’s really to create transcendent experiences for audiences. And I have implicit faith in audiences. I think most organizations dumb down the audience by saying, we have to only play what we think they want to hear. And what? That’s the exact opposite of what you have to do. You have to lead taste. You don’t follow taste, and the audiences are not found. They’re created. And I know this from personal experience. Anyone who looks at what we did with the Ojai Music Festival who’d never been there. Well, that’s all very interesting, but does anybody show up? Because the programs are wild. And the answer is yes. Everything’s full. I was just the last week in Sioux Falls, South Dakota.
Mindy Peterson: [00:28:44] Are not far from me. No.
Tom Morris: [00:28:46] I but I went out. There’s a little orchestra there. The South Dakota Symphony that has a very interesting and wonderful conductor, a fellow named David Geier. And he’s been there 20 years. And this orchestra has been cited in the press for several years as something really interesting is going on there. And this little orchestra in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, performed a completely forgotten opera by an American composer who has also forgotten Douglas Moore, called Giants in the Earth, which was written, I think, in 1951 and received a Pulitzer Prize and has had one performance since. It’s totally forgotten.
Mindy Peterson: [00:29:30] Wow.
Tom Morris: [00:29:31] And it’s it’s the story of the opera is based on a on a book by a Norwegian writer who lived in Sioux Falls. And it’s about the Norwegian settlers coming to South Dakota.
Mindy Peterson: [00:29:43] Oh, interesting.
Tom Morris: [00:29:45] And they did. You know, they usually do one performance of a concert out there. They did two of these giants in the earth, in a hall that seats 1600 people. And it was full both nights.
Mindy Peterson: [00:29:58] Wow.
Tom Morris: [00:29:58] And and it’s because they have established a relationship with that community of trust. Mhm. And any normal logical thinking would say, are you crazy to do something like that. But no, they, you know, they delivered it with conviction. They they made it an event. You know, it was topical because of the subject matter. And it was just amazing.
Mindy Peterson: [00:30:28] Wow.
Tom Morris: [00:30:28] And that’s how you have to think.
Mindy Peterson: [00:30:31] Huh? You quote an orchestra executive in your book who said the status quo is an existential threat brilliantly disguised as stability, which I thought that’s a good quote for all of us to keep in mind, whether we’re thinking about our own personal lives, our business, a nonprofit organization.
Tom Morris: [00:30:50] Absolutely right. Absolutely right. Absolutely right. So, so that’s that’s really why I wrote the book. I wanted to convey that message. And, um, and the only way I knew how to tell that story and make that point was not to simply write a series of platitudes. You know, I, I needed to describe how that feeling evolved in my own thinking from the people I worked with and the work I did. So it’s considered out of experience and it works, and it is absolutely necessary. And last week, a classic example. I saw it in person.
Mindy Peterson: [00:31:29] Yeah, it sounds like it. I’m going to just mention another quote that was in your book. You quote Frans Johansson, who says, when you step into an intersection of fields, disciplines and cultures, you can combine existing concepts into a large number of extraordinary new ideas. So that really speaks to just that value of interdisciplinary learning and collaboration. And certainly this book is a great example of that.
Tom Morris: [00:31:58] You know, at the end of the book, I in maybe it’s in a moment of supreme ego or something, I don’t know, but I, I tried to summarize what are three words that describe me or what I stand for? And the three which I, I think are absolutely real and um, and others do as well. Is curiosity, imagination and exuberance.
Mindy Peterson: [00:32:30] Um, those are three good ones.
Tom Morris: [00:32:32] Well, and I think looking what do you do now with this situation? I wish all musicians had courses in curiosity, imagination and exuberance in what they do. It’s not just how you play the clarinet, you know, but it’s it’s the way you convey the music and the fact that you are curious about listening to classical music. Sick jazz, world music and be free to sort of borrow concepts between them. It’s that interdisciplinary point that you’re making, but it starts with just having curiosity.
Mindy Peterson: [00:33:20] Mhm. Three cheers for curiosity for sure.
Tom Morris: [00:33:24] And and I absolutely think that you can teach curiosity. I mean you can teach it by, by simply, you know, forcing people into uncomfortable positions with other in other situations. And so they have to deal with it. And, and you know, you sort of things you like and things you don’t like, but all of a sudden what you really want is people to open their minds.
Mindy Peterson: [00:33:51] Mhm. Great word to end on. Well we’re out of time here. But I do have to share just one more quote. As you can tell I love quotes. Yeah. And I always like seeing which quote and author selects to put at the very beginning of their book and those Each entry pages. And when I read yours, I just started laughing. Because I have interviewed a lot of authors, I’ve heard a lot of authors interviewed on other podcasts, and they talk so often about what an arduous process it is to write a book, get it published. And when I read that beginning quote to your book on the entry intro pages, there it was.
Tom Morris: [00:34:31] Oh, the Winston Churchill.
Mindy Peterson: [00:34:32] Yes, Winston Churchill. He said writing a book is an adventure to begin with. It is a toy and an amusement. And then it becomes a mistress, and then it becomes a master, and then it becomes a tyrant. And the last phase is that just as you are about to be reconciled to your servitude, you kill the monster and fling him about to the public. I thought, oh, this sounds like a great way to encapsulate the process based on what I’ve heard from a lot of authors.
Tom Morris: [00:35:03] Well, I figured that that Why should I talk about my journey in writing the book? Churchill. Churchill, you know, captured it perfectly. And I can tell you from personal experience it is exactly that.
Mindy Peterson: [00:35:16] Oh, well, thank you for putting this book out into the world. I highly recommend it. As you know, I ask all my guests, Tom, to close out our conversation with a musical ending a coda by sharing a song or story about a moment that music enhanced your life. I’m sure you have a bazillion that you could select from, but do you have a song or story that you can share with us today in closing?
Tom Morris: [00:35:38] Sure. And in fact, it’s the one that I opened the book with. Uh, I’m I’m always asked, so what’s the what’s the most amazing concert you’ve ever been to?
Mindy Peterson: [00:35:48] Ah.
Tom Morris: [00:35:49] And I can answer that question precisely. And it was a concert that, um, that I produced in Ojai in 2017. The music director was Vijay Iyer, the jazz pianist, composer, and that whole festival was structured around sort of as an homage to something called the aACM Academy for the Advancement of Creative Musicians, founded by a group of black musicians in Chicago in 1965. And Vijay Iyer is kind of three generations down the line from that, from that group. It’s a fascinating movement that’s not really known about much.
Mindy Peterson: [00:36:30] I have never heard of it. I need to look it up.
Tom Morris: [00:36:33] You should look it up. And there’s a marvelous book on the history of it by George Lewis, the composer. Anyway, we did a concert. It was a Sunday morning concert in Ojai, a one hour concert of free jazz improvisation with three musicians, um, a fellow named Muhal Richard Abrams, who was 89, pianist who was one of the founders of the aACM. He died, unfortunately, about three months after. But he was he was there and played also a fan named Roscoe Mitchell, who played reeds. And Roscoe was in his early 80s. He was not a founding member, but he was an early member of the ACM. And then George Lewis, the composer who was in his late 60s. He played trombone and and turntables. And these three characters went out on stage and they they just played for one hour. It was the most bizarre, weird, strange, otherworldly music that was really hard to pigeonhole, you know, as far away from everything I had done in my life up to that point. But it absolutely transfixed this audience, and it completely transfixed me. I mean, it was just jaw dropping it. I couldn’t breathe, it was so Intense and somehow honest and and I wondered, why did I respond this way? And I think, um, there’s a couple reasons for it. One is that I was ready. I was curious enough to be open to it. Um, it was the setting. It was, you know, beautiful Sunday morning outdoors at the Libbey Bowl in Ojai. These three master musicians. But the most interesting thing to me is it proved that the new is not the province of the young. Here are these really old guys, you know, not reliving their greatest hits, but actually creating the future in real time.
Mindy Peterson: [00:38:45] Mhm.
Tom Morris: [00:38:46] And that was completely overwhelming to me. And it’s what it’s, that is the that is the concert that stands out above all others without any question.
Transcribed by Sonix.ai