Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.
Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson, and this is Enhance Life with Music, where we explore the ways music can make our lives better and spotlight the resources you can use to enhance your life with music. Have you ever wondered how are songs written? What’s the process? How important are song lyrics? Does anyone listen to the lyrics? Could I write a song? What would it take for me to write a song? What makes a song a hit anyway? Today’s guest recently wrote a book that addresses all of these questions and in engaging, humorous way that really caught my attention and was super fun to read. Mike Errico is the author of the book music, lyrics, and Life A Field Guide for the Advancing Songwriter. Mike is a New York City based recording artist and educator. He’s toured internationally performing. He’s composed extensively for film and TV and teaches songwriting at universities including Yale, Wesleyan and NYU’s Clive Davis Institute of Recorded Music. His work has been featured in publications including The New York Times, CNN, and The Wall Street Journal. Welcome to Enhance Life with Music, Mike.
Mike Errico: [00:01:13] Thank you so much for having me.
Mindy Peterson: [00:01:15] Well, I’m so looking forward to giving my audience a behind the scenes look at the songwriting process and just understanding the how and why of how the brain responds to certain elements in a song. And my day job, as you and I discussed offline, I work with a lot of college music faculty who I know will be really interested in learning about your book, if they’re not already familiar with it.
Mike Errico: [00:01:39] My people!
Mindy Peterson: [00:01:40] Yeah. Yeah. And also in my audience are other music lovers, whether professional or not, who may have an interest in writing music.
Mike Errico: [00:01:49] Also my people.
Mindy Peterson: [00:01:50] Yeah. Yeah. And even those of us who may not have a particular interest in writing a song ourselves would be really interested to know more about the songwriting process. I always feel the more we know, the more we appreciate when we’re listening to music. So I’m really excited about this conversation. Starting out, you have an entire chapter on what the brain likes, and I love how you introduce this chapter. I’m just going to read from your book here. You say our audience is the human brain. Apologies to those who feel I’m giving the heart the short end of the stick here, but what can I tell you? Hearts can be transplanted. You know who figured out how to do that? Brains. I’m not a neurologist, but as a songwriter, I’ve done some tinkering and a little market research. And here’s what I’ve noticed. So tell us, Mike, what have you noticed? What is it about songs that the brain responds to? What elements does the brain respond to?
Mike Errico: [00:02:51] Um, a lot of things that I think the brain responds to goes way back. I feel like I’ve been going back into sort of like an anthropological sort of study to find out that like that we as a species are not very extraordinary physically. And I think we were for a long time hunted and scared and very, very anxious. Right. We figured out about 70,000 years ago that we do well in groups, and we communicate well in groups. And that feeling is communicated so well through art and through songwriting specifically. Um, so as anxious and weird as we actually are, when we see things or hear things that we know to be right or at least recognizable, we love that. And we literally get this shot of dopamine as a result of being right. So like the first thing that we actually enjoy is, is being right. We simulate that sense of rightness by repeating information in choruses and verses and titles and in song form, you know.
Mindy Peterson: [00:04:18] So you’re talking here about both melody and lyrics. Both?
Mike Errico: [00:04:23] Yes. The form itself. I mean, the form itself. Some of the, some of the tightest forms that we have were developed in the Tin Pan Alley era. And the idea is like having these refrains that repeat gives us a sense of community and gives us a sense of being able to not only join in with the singer, but join in with the other listeners. And if you I don’t know if you managed to get to a Taylor Swift show over this past, you know, 2024.r.
Mike Errico: [00:04:55] Or Chappell Roan or Olivia Rodrigo or any of the big people, including people we don’t even hear about. You know, niche artists and such. The singalong aspect of what they do is something that that satisfies us in a way that is extra musical, right? It actually goes, I think, to who we really are. It almost makes us feel safe in a way, and it’s because of our evolution, I think, as people who feel naturally unsafe.
Mindy Peterson: [00:05:30] So is that singalong a fact because of the form of the song, or is it because we’re all together, we’re in training, we’re all listening and singing and responding together as a group, a tribe, a herd.
Mike Errico: [00:05:45] Yeah, literally, literally all those things. And that word tribe is so interesting because it is so ancient. But the, the concept and I think that is what writers Try to achieve is, is the sense of tribe. And in fact, I mean, if you look at some of the big writers. They literally name the tribes, right? So like Lady Gaga has, her fan base is called the Little Monsters, right? And there are others, uh, Deadheads or whatever you want to call them. Like people who follow and who are part of this whole thing feel safer as a result of being connected to one another. So the easiest way to connect it to each other is to make it kind of easy to repeat and to understand. Right. So I think a lot of the stuff that comes with teaching songwriting is like, well, this stuff is so simple, and they take that as a negative, but it’s actually by design, right? The the ability to do things simply is also a call to people to Congregate, right?
Mindy Peterson: [00:06:56] Is it a source of sort of like reassurance? Yeah. For familiarity?
Mike Errico: [00:07:02] I think so. But then there’s a flip side. Right. I’m sorry. The flip side of it. We like to be right in those kinds of ways, but we don’t like to be bored. That’s the other part of it. So I think also in songs, people like to be challenged, at least somewhat like so.
Mindy Peterson: [00:07:20] So if we break it down a little bit and for talk first about song form, I know you mentioned song form and you’ve probably seen this. There’s something online a like a YouTube video that I used to show to my piano students about how all pop music can be distilled down into like a, you know, the same four chords or whatever, that repeat in certain ways. Yeah. And it’s kind of fun to listen to it and how they, they do that, but talk a little bit like, let’s just set lyrics aside for a minute and talk about song form and sort of the puzzle. What? What makes things familiar and comfortable and attracts the brain. And the brain responds to because it feels like it’s right. And then how we add a little twist to that so that the brain doesn’t get bored. Talk about that. And just that dopamine connection, because you talk in your book a lot about the dopamine connection.
Mike Errico: [00:08:14] Yeah. Well. Having that sense of like coming around to the second chorus, say, and being able to sing it along with us, and I won’t sing anything because I’m sure there’s a copyright problem with that. But once we are able to join in, we feel that we are part of something larger than ourselves, right? And that to us feels it feels good. It, um. Even if what they’re saying is atrocious. You know, it’s like it’s just a completely like, you know, desolate kind of chorus and like, very depressing lyrics or whatever. If we’re all doing it together, we all are having a good cry, you know?
Mindy Peterson: [00:08:51] Well, you even think about Rockabye Baby in the tree top. You know, I mean, the lyrics to that, it’s a little macabre. It’s kind of like we’re singing this to little babies, right?
Mike Errico: [00:09:01] Right. The baby falls. But it’s a cliffhanger, right? It falls cradle and all. It falls, and it never hits the ground.
Mike Errico: [00:09:09] Of course.That would be a horrific last verse, right? But but we leave it sort of there. It’s like good night. Um, but yes, what I’m saying is, like, with that idea of connection and of being right, there’s also the concern for the writer of boring folks. So that’s where we get things like theme and variation, right? So the variation on the themes is what keeps us going, you know, keeps us, keeps us interested, and it keeps an arc happening because we like we like the familiarity, but we don’t like to know everything that’s happening. Right.
Mindy Peterson: [00:09:47] When thinking about Song Bridges. You know, it’s kind of taking like, ooh, where is this going? It’s a little bit different. And then it leads us back to the chorus again. Familiar territory. Oh, yeah. Recognize this?
Mike Errico: [00:10:00] Definitely. Because if we just go from like, you know, verse to the chorus of the verse to the chorus to the verse to the chorus, it’s kind of like, oh my God, you know, give us, give us something. And really, that’s when I talk to my students. I’m like, that’s where a song breaks right there. The back half of the chorus or the back half of the song. Those those are two dangerous spots. And I like, by the way, I like how you just drop that. You teach piano. That’s very interesting.
Mindy Peterson: [00:10:29] Yes. Yeah, well, I taught for about 30 years before I transitioned into my current day job, where I mentioned I work with music faculty for the local Steinway dealer here in Minneapolis.
Mike Errico: [00:10:40] So cool. I was telling you, my dad has a Steinway D in his house.
Mindy Peterson: [00:10:44] Yeah. So this was so fascinating. This is where we hit record. Yeah. So just briefly. Okay. I am a huge fan of interdisciplinary training. Cross training. You mentioned that your dad is by vocation, a doctor. Yes, but he’s also a musician. He has a Steinway D, which for those who aren’t familiar with the models of Steinway, this is a nine foot concert grand. This thing is huge. And he lives in New York City, where space is at a premium. So God bless your mother who allows this in the house because it probably takes up half the house. But I love that your dad’s a doctor by vocation. He is such a wonderful pianist that he takes classes at Juilliard and he’s performed at Steinway Hall. So. Wow. Fascinating guy.
Mike Errico: [00:11:31] Not only Steinway Hall, Carnegie Hall, I mean, he’s seriously. Oh, yeah. Sure.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:36] Oh my.
Mike Errico: [00:11:36] Goodness. Yeah, I know he’s done that. I mean, we’ve played together. We’ve played with you know, he plays with my sister and jazz clubs. He’s he’s doing he’s doing a lot. And by the way, it’s not just large. It is loud.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:48] Yes.
Mike Errico: [00:11:50] So like I don’t know how the neighbors are handling it, but there everyone seems to be okay with it.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:56] Yeah, that soundboard is is also close to nine feet. And that’s like the piano speaker. So it’s a big speaker.
Mike Errico: [00:12:03] And he has perfect pitch. So it’s tuned like every day. It’s like.
Mindy Peterson: [00:12:07] Oh my.
Mike Errico: [00:12:08] It’s his like not every day but like it’s his sports car basically.
Mindy Peterson: [00:12:11] Yes yes that’s a great way to put it. And I would love to talk to him about his perspective on how being a musician makes him a better doctor.
Mike Errico: [00:12:20] But there’s so many connections to to math which, which and science. Yeah. Which goes all the way back to another thing about like, what the brain really likes, which is like multiples of even numbers of twos and fours, like, we have so much of that. And so that becomes like a tell for us as writers, because we can make things fall on the beat and we will get a sense of rightness that we talked about earlier from that mathematics. Or we can actually throw things into 5 or 7 or surprise in any types of different ways in order to destabilize for an artistic effect. Right.
Mindy Peterson: [00:13:04] Yeah. Oh, wow. I mean, we could spend the entire time just talking about this because, like, I’m thinking about I love to play piano just for fun in the evenings to kind of unwind. And recently, I’ve been playing a lot of 80s music, but then also ABBA songs. And as I’m playing through these ABBA songs on the piano, I’m realizing they switch meter a lot. Like, I guess I never analyzed that much when I listen to it being recorded, but as I’m playing through it, I’m like, whoa, this is really interesting. So just to keep things moving here, there’s so much in your book that’s so fascinating. Again, we could talk the whole time about just what the brain likes, but basically you talk a lot in the book about dopamine and how the brain generates that neurotransmitter based on what it’s listening to. With different song forms, with section, with repeats. But also it likes to be. It likes a puzzle to solve. It doesn’t want it to be too easy. And so just how certain songs can sort of put twists on that familiarity and that the repetition that the brain does like to keep it interested, but just to keep things moving along. Let’s talk a little bit about song lyrics. I personally don’t I find myself not really listening to song lyrics a ton, and I noticed this when my kids were young, because they got to a certain age where I’d have music playing in the car, and I’m just enjoying the the melody and the song.
Mindy Peterson: [00:14:32] And then my kids would start repeating the lyrics and I was like, oh, is that what they’re saying? I had to change the station here because, yeah, my kids are a little too young to listen to those lyrics and be repeating them. So I, I do find that I don’t necessarily listen to lyrics a whole lot, But if I’m going to intentionally add a song to a playlist that I’ve curated, I do really listen to the lyrics because I do recognize the value and what those lyrics are. When I am paying attention to them, what they do to my subconscious, and how I really do sort of absorb subconsciously those lyrics. And so if something if the lyrics are not something that I agree with or believe in or want emulated in my life, I’m not going to intentionally add that song to my playlist. So I feel like I have sort of a both and response to song lyrics. You talk in your book about the importance of song lyrics, and some people have said that nobody listens to the lyrics and you have an interesting response to that. What’s your response?
Mike Errico: [00:15:43] I believe the response is like, what do you think people are tattooing on their bodies? The horn chart. No. The answer is not that. Or like the opening overture on the on the piano or whatever. It’s it’s it’s the lyrics and the lyrics. The lyrics are there as a tool, you know, you can either use them or let them go. You really can. And it really has to do, I think, with, with the intention of the song and of the artist. I think that some artists who are finding themselves falling off in popularity, I this is hot take, but I think it’s because their lyrics have never really been about something larger than the art that they’re creating. And I don’t want to name any names or whatever, but I think we are search. We search for something larger. And now I’m not a passive, I, I know when I’m passively listening, I just like the beat and the blah, blah blah, you know? Okay. But I mean, look at the charts. How many instrumentals are on the charts, right?
Mindy Peterson: [00:16:51] Well, I like how you point that out to. I mean, the tattoo thing just made me laugh when I read that. And just when you say it again, but then also you say, how many instrumentals do you see in the top ten?
Mike Errico: [00:17:02] So also what’s important to remember, I think, is that lyrics get the best instrument that there is, right? It gets the human voice. And what a shame not to use it to advantage or to have it run. I don’t know, nonsense. You know, some people love that, right? Because it can keep the song in the level of abstraction, right? Lyrics can go two ways. They can stay abstract, or they can get hyper specific. If you don’t want to get specific for whatever reason, it’s a dance song, right? I don’t need you, like, working out pie or something like that, you know, in the.
Mindy Peterson: [00:17:41] Or people who are working through trauma. Like, I’ve had a guest on the show who works with military veterans and song writing can be hugely therapeutic for them, but they keep it abstract for a reason. They don’t want to relive the graphic details of what they’ve experienced, but they can talk about it in the abstract.
Mike Errico: [00:18:01] And boy, is that difficult. That’s a crazy moment. I, by the way, wanted to do that and I wrote them. Never heard anything back from them. So if they’re if they’re out there.
Mindy Peterson: [00:18:10] Who’s that?
Mike Errico: [00:18:12] Is it something soldiers, fallen soldiers, or. I forget what?
Mindy Peterson: [00:18:16] I’m okay. Creative Arts is who I interviewed. I was in touch with them.
Mike Errico: [00:18:21] I would love to do it anyway, but I can do it in the in miniature. Sort of, because I. I’m thinking specifically of a student who is just very vague and, and her songs were very vague. And then like through revision, it was like really vague, but it was kind of about her dad. Okay, next revision. It’s kind of about her dad not being a great guy. And I was like. Excellent. Keep going. Keep. She’s like, I think this is as far as I want to go. And I’m like, I know, I know that. I would say, keep going. Why is your dad not so great? And this whole thing is minor and you’re trying you’re trying to say something lyrically that you would rather leave to the guitar or the minor keys or the or that kind of stuff, but she really needed. I’m just thinking about this one specific thing. I was like, she really needs to say it and not just emote it, you know? And by the way, never has to play it right, never has to publicize it, never has to put it out there. Yeah, but I leave the class open to a world where you are never a songwriter and you turn into a memoirist, or you turn into painting, or you turn into something else entirely because it’s a transferable skill.
Mindy Peterson: [00:19:44] Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Mike Errico: [00:19:46] Vulnerability and ability to express. It doesn’t always come out in song. Not everything rhymes, right? And not everything wants to rhyme. Because some things need more words and description than a song wants to provide. Its its own kind of form. Like, this entire book came out of journaling and the journaling came it just it, uh, it was not intended. The book was unintended. Teaching was unintended.
Mindy Peterson: [00:20:19] Really.
Mike Errico: [00:20:21] Well, nothing was intended.
Mindy Peterson: [00:20:22] Yes, I love I love how you talk about how you just felt. Okay. You got to tell the story about how you fell into songwriting. It was through your dad, right?
Mike Errico: [00:20:31] It was through my dad. I graduated college with an American Studies degree or something. Right. And it was sort of in, in history because we were like, oh, Mike’s going to go to law school. Why? No reason. Uh, But sounds good. So that never happened. And I was wandering through the world playing guitar, playing for other people. And my dad, who is this player? Heard that there’s a pop songwriting class going on on the in New York. So he signs up for it, and he’s thinking that pop songwriting is going to be like 20th century, like, you know, Schoenberg and like maybe early Sondheim or like Golden Age.
Mindy Peterson: [00:21:09] Gershwin.
Mike Errico: [00:21:10] Gershwin and Ali, whatever. And he finds out that it’s like pop music and he’s like, this is terrible. Like, this is not what I want to be doing. Everything’s three chords. We have the same name, right? So he said, just go in my place because I don’t want to get the money back because he’s a he’s a teacher, right? So I show up for this pop songwriting class not knowing what I’m doing there. And the guy’s like, you don’t look the same. I was like, oh, you know, I showered, I shaved, it’s whatever. Um, I clean up nice. Um, and so I just showed up, and I. And that was it. That was how. That’s how I got into songwriting. Because I had a there was no way I was like, no one’s ever going to want to hear anything. I have to say. There’s just no way. I just had like, a very difficult, you know, self-confidence issue. So it took a long time for me to admit, even though I was playing for others, being behind the scenes kind of fit my vibe a little bit better. And so now, I mean, fast forward, all I’m doing is like, telling people the things I wish I had, I had heard.
Mindy Peterson: [00:22:18] Well, you sort of fell into teaching two at Yale nonetheless and NYU and so, so but that’s yeah, that’s a whole nother story. You mentioned journaling. And that was sort of what led to this book. And I loved chapter five in your book and the power of the Daily Journal, you, you say in that chapter that the most important book that you assign is full of blank pages. It’s a journal. Yeah. And then you talk a lot about the value of journaling when it comes to writing songs. Talk to us a little bit about that value.
Mike Errico: [00:22:51] Well, I mean, journaling has been the avenue through which I have found almost everything, including and maybe most importantly, my artistic voice. And I would even go further and be like, I found my personality by writing it out. Like I’m a lot of things. I like to please people like, you know, whatever party time, whatever. I try to do that kind of thing, but like, my real vibe is found, I think, in, in the journaling. And so I hope for that, for my for my students. You know, I give it to them as a tool. I’m like, look, 12 weeks or whatever it is. Hit the gas. Do this thing. And then at the end be like, I’m going to do this forever, or Mike is full of it. And like that was it. That was a terrible thing. The worst thing that could possibly happen is that you have a 12 week recording, literally, of your time as a 20 year old in New York, going to college. Everything that was like running through your mind. How can that be a bad thing? You know, so that’s the kind of thing that I’m I’m hoping for them. And again, the teaching career popped out of that. A book popped out of that.
Mike Errico: [00:24:09] Several records. I’ve had record deals, whatever. But like those are lower than, like, having a perspective and like a point of view. So journaling is a holistic practice and it manifests in songwriting, but it manifests in all kinds of other things. I tell them, if you’re sitting there suddenly, like coming up with recipes or designs for, I don’t know what, a bridge or a house or whatever, you know, like follow those, follow those, those are, those are like little wrestling’s in the woods, like chase them. You know, we’re going to do songwriting for 12 weeks here in the class. Fine. Maybe forever. Maybe never again. You’re on a larger path, and songwriting may be just part of it. So that’s what journaling does. And the blank page is it’s one. It’s just like one of those things that it’s like a mirror. But you have to you have to fill it in yourself. Um, yeah. And so that’s, that’s what I hope for them. And at the end of the, at the end of the semester, you know, I get some people who are like, that sucked and I get some people who are like, I’m never not doing that again. This is the greatest thing ever.
Mindy Peterson: [00:25:17] Yeah. And like you said, transferable skill because I mean. Right. It could be like your own private therapy session that leads to so many different things, whether it’s relationally, career or personal life, whatever. Recipes. Yeah, absolutely. I love that chapter. You talk about how writing as a muscle in journaling is going to the gym. Yes. And you also talk about how it’s the thing that you can control is your output. You can’t necessarily control if something becomes a hit or not with songwriting, but you can control your output. And the people who are writing hits are the people who are writing a lot. Quantity leads to quality. And speaking of that, what is the recipe for a good song or a hit song?
Mike Errico: [00:26:02] Well, there’s a good song and there’s a hit song, right? And both of them are really subjective, although only one sounds subjective. The good one, obviously is like the one that you like, or the one that you came to this world to express, you know, or this is the anthem of my time, either for the week, for your life, for your generation, etc., etc. those things are personally satisfying. Now, the word hit is the one that really messes people up, because it sounds like it’s the one on the chart, right? Um, the one with the number one next to it. So a lot of people are like, you don’t even you can’t even create a hit song. I mean, if you could hit create a hit song, we would not have album tracks, right? We would only have hits. We would bounce from hit to hit to hit. Which of course makes no sense. But that’s that’s all we would write. We wouldn’t bother writing other types of things. Some of my songwriting students don’t write anything but hits. You know, they’ll come in with a chorus, and if you didn’t like the chorus, I’m not going to bother writing the rest of it. That’s it. Like, they’re if efficient that way, and they have publishing deals and they’re doing stuff like that, so they’re not going to waste their time on a verse.
Mike Errico: [00:27:18] They say to me, no one sings along to the verse. It’s the chorus or nothing. Again, I won’t sing a chorus, but you know the chorus. Sing a Taylor Swift song and you’re probably going to. The first thing you’re going to sing is most likely the chorus. The other thing about a hit is that there are there are things like luck and timing that you can’t control. Right. That’s why I say all you can control is your output. Who went to sleep? With who? Who showed up drunk at the awards ceremony? Who? Who shockingly got five Grammy or whatever, you know. Yeah. This kind of thing creates a hit. Some hits happen twice. Tracy Chapman had a song called Fast Car, which has hit twice. It probably even went higher the second time, 20 something years later. Other songs like Since You Been Gone by Kelly Clarkson was not written for Kelly Clarkson. It was written for pink. And then it bounced around and it became a hit. But not for pink. It became a hit for Kelly Clarkson. You know what I mean? So like, yeah, hits are are a function of so many things that can drive it right.
Mike Errico: [00:28:23] Or crazy. So my thing for for my students to keep them sane is a hit is something that first of all, you think is good and second of all satisfies your tribe. And maybe grows the tribe a bit, right? Yeah. I don’t know if you. Well, in Minneapolis. What do you have there? Uh, what is that place? East one East or whatever. There’s Paisley Park, but there’s a there’s a first Ave. There you go. I’ve played that place a couple of times. Um, if you follow. First Ave, you show up. I mean, just just look at what. Who’s showing up at first half, right? They’re going to be people. You don’t know, like. Yeah. And the place is going to be full. That’s crazy. They’re writing hits. They’re not on the charts, but they’re making great. Uh. They’re doing great business, and they’re satisfying a group of people never having hit the charts there. Go! Billboard is not the determining factor for a hit. It’s luck timing. Who was the singer? Blah blah blah blah. Did you find your tribe and are you addressing them and satisfying them, right?
Mindy Peterson: [00:29:38] I love how you define that in terms of what’s a good song, what’s a hit song, and really focusing on what can you control and what can’t you recognizing that driving yourself insane by chasing something you have no control over, but really controlling your output and writing. And you say in the book, not all good songs are hits. Not all hit songs are good. Sure, you say a song can’t be either until it’s finished. So like, just right, right, right.
Mike Errico: [00:30:06] Sure. And, you know, we I have office hours, of course, and there’s a lot of crying in office hours. Right. And a lot of the crying has to do with lack of control, you know, how do I. It’s a good song. Why is nobody blah blah blah blah. Why is it not a hit, blah blah blah blah. I’m like, you know what? You can’t control that. You made you did great work and you finished it. Onward. Just onward, onward, onward, you know? Yeah. And they keep coming to office hours. So it’s I think it’s the type of of advice that is actually helpful.
Mindy Peterson: [00:30:39] Yeah. Well, one more question since I know we’re running out of time here, where do song ideas come from?
Mike Errico: [00:30:45] Well, first of all, I mean, we talked about the journaling. Of course. Yes, but I was thinking about this one.
Mindy Peterson: [00:30:51] And I’ll just point out that I love how in that journaling section and throughout the book, you include lots of prompts to get people going and also alternate, like if you don’t want to journal or you’re just having a hard time getting started on that, you’re not used to it. Here’s an alternative. Pick a specific object and write about it for ten minutes. Sure. You know, and you, you know, talk about that. So I love that you have those different prompts to kind of get people going. But yeah.
Mike Errico: [00:31:15] And those those are culled from all sorts of books that I’ve picked up. And the reason I wrote this book is because it was a mash of a bunch of other books, plus like my own ideas, and I had nothing to assign, so I had to put it all together. But anyway.
Mindy Peterson: [00:31:31] Also, you’ve had some incredibly successful students. Yeah, yeah. And they share some really important secrets and tips and. Yeah they do. In your book with you and you’ve worked with some. I mean you’ve worked with Katy Perry, Rob Thomas, he’s come to your class. Oh yeah. So lots of you have a lot of like, little mini interviews sprinkled throughout the book that are really fascinating. Yeah, but go ahead. Where do song ideas come from? Journaling…
Mike Errico: [00:31:57] Right, so. So where does song ideas come from? Yes. Journaling of course. But like, I had just finished, uh, the David Lynch book Catching the Big Fish, if you’ve heard it, which is a it’s about it’s really about transcendental meditation, but it’s about how to access your most creative self. And his thing was really about like meditating, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it was weird because I read this and I was like, you know what? I actually know a fly fisherman who gives tours on the Arkansas River, and he’s been doing it for decades, and he looks like the guy who would do that, right? Like the long blonde hair and the big beard and the, you know, the cap and the whatever, the whole thing. And I interview him in the book. And he catches actual big fish. And I asked him, like, how do you catch them? Right. And he basically told me that the success comes from being aware of your surroundings and just getting in the damn boat. He’s like, I got to get in the boat. That’s where the fish are, right?
Mike Errico: [00:32:57] Wow. You know, every day. And magic does happen. You have big fish days, and you learn on the days where no fish show up. But you learn nothing unless you’re in the boat. I was like, wow. City slicker get gets a lesson. Get in the boat.
Mindy Peterson: [00:33:17] Yes. Love that metaphor. Another thing I love about your book is you include so many references to other great resources. Yeah. Like Stephen King’s On Writing, which I’ve heard other people just rave about. Also, who are writers and not necessarily songwriters, but like TV writers and, you know, um, Pat Patterson writing better lyrics. Jeff Tweedy, Annie Dillard. Uh, How Music Works by David Byrne. So just and then you have that whole appendix summer reading list for sometime later in life.
Mike Errico: [00:33:50] So it’s funny you should mention that, because I just put up on my Substack a revised version.
Mike Errico: [00:33:58] Because a student came up to me and they’re like, uh, I need to write. I need more books about songwriting and stuff like that. Help me out. So I put a Substack together of those books, plus a bunch of other different types of things. So it’s funny you should mention you should mention that.
Mindy Peterson: [00:34:15] Yeah. Well, I love resources and each resource is going to resonate with different people. So I’m a big fan of just like making a list of some of those references or the resources that you reference. Check them out. And if you see one, they’re like, oh no, that’s probably not what I need. But ooh, that one looks like that’s, you know, like, right. Hitting the nail on the head for what I’m looking for right now. Yeah. So I love that you have all those additional resources in the book. Your book also addresses avoiding lawsuits, collecting royalties, how to split songwriting credit. So lots of very practical information. And just as I’m sure listeners can tell, done in a very engaging, humorous way that really keeps your attention and doesn’t get bogged down in the weeds.
Mike Errico: [00:34:59] I really try to do that, and I think it’s, it’s it’s from talking to to to college students all day. You have to be like a better show.
Mindy Peterson: [00:35:09] But, you know, not all college professors pick up on that and and learn from that and become more engaging and easy to listen to.
Mike Errico: [00:35:18] It happens to actually vibe with the subject matter. You know, maybe if I were doing, I don’t know, vampires through history, I you know what? That would be fun to I don’t know.
Mindy Peterson: [00:35:30] Archaeology, I don’t know.
Mike Errico: [00:35:31] Hilarious. That would be great. But yeah. So all those things are are sort of in there. And I tried to make it funny and tried to make it enjoyable because I try to make the class enjoyable, because I do have this thing about when you’re laughing, there’s something open about your mind. Right? And I think you learn. I personally learn better if I’m laughing while I’m doing it, because totally.
Mindy Peterson: [00:35:57] And I remember it more too. I think I retain it.
Mike Errico: [00:36:01] And I’m also more vulnerable and being goofy and failing and stuff like that is actually part of it. You know, like a pratfall or a pie in the face kind of thing is really just part of the process if you’re all in that sort of mind space.
Mike Errico: [00:36:19] So, if people are laughing, I think they’re learning. Um, and if you tell a joke, right, if you tell half the joke they’re in for the second half, they’re not going to go anywhere. You know? So that keeps attention.
Mindy Peterson: [00:36:32] Yes. Well, listeners, if you have any interest at all in writing a song or learning more about what this process looks like and just understanding it so you have a greater appreciation when you’re listening to music? Definitely check out Mike’s book. Love it. I’ll have links in the show, notes of course to it and to Mike’s website. Before we close out with the coda, the musical ending. Mike, is there anything you want to leave listeners with that we didn’t get to cover? I mean, like I said, we could have gone in a million directions and spent hours on each one. It’s been so fun chatting with you. But yeah, anything you want to just leave listeners with about the songwriting process or your book before we close?
Mike Errico: [00:37:10] Just that I feel this is my first year being a full time professor. I got a little cap and a gown and a thing, you know, the whole. And I walked down, down an aisle with a bunch of other folks and stuff.
Mindy Peterson: [00:37:24] At commencement.
Mike Errico: [00:37:25] At commencement. And it was a beautiful feeling and a really beautiful Full ceremony. And I love being around people of curiosity that are learning regardless how they’re learning, if they’re in a school, if they’re not in a school. When I was working on this book, I bumped into just a lot of people who were not able to go to school. Right. George Bernard Shaw was unable to go to school. All he did was pick up a book. And then that book mentioned a couple books. Then he read those, and then they did other books, and then and they branched out that way. So, like, that kind of curiosity really doesn’t have a boundary set to it or a financial wall to it. Yeah. Um, and it’s just available. So being in that sort of area where people are, are doing that kind of thing is, is just really exciting. And they’re just really cool people who, who are in that and are involved in that. So people who are taking your piano Lessons, right? Like, that’s a cool thing. I just think that learning things is really cool.
Mindy Peterson: [00:38:35] I totally agree. Well, in that curiosity, it doesn’t have to have an end goal either. Doesn’t have to be, like you said, writing a song that turns into a hit. And that’s what you do vocationally for the rest of your life. It could be something that turns into writing a recipe or or sort of working through your relationship with your your father, like you mentioned. Um, you know, it can turn into so many different things and it’s transferable skill, transferable talent.
Mike Errico: [00:39:04] And in music. And I think also in this time period that we’re in that kind of movement through ideas and jobs and careers and all this kind of thing. It’s just part of the it’s part of our fabric. Now, you’re not shoeing horses for 40 years like your father and their father before them and the father before them. Whatever. It’s about transferring skills into many different media. Um, So a sense of curiosity works for any of them.
Mindy Peterson: [00:39:33] So love it. Well, as you know, Mike, I ask all my guests to close out our conversation with a musical ending a coda by sharing a song or story about a moment that music enhanced your life. Tell us about the song or story. Actually, there’s a clip of a song I think that you’re going to share with us. Tell us about that.
Mike Errico: [00:39:52] I hope this isn’t embarrassing, but I chose one of my own. I hope it’s not embarrassing for me, but I did choose one of my own songs. Um, but. And I did it for a reason. Uh, the song is my most recent song. It’s called shine. And I picked it because it’s an anthem, I believe, to radical optimism. And I feel like that’s a moment that is. That’s something that is, I think, really required in our, in our present situation.
Mindy Peterson: [00:40:23] Yes. We need more of that.
Mike Errico: [00:40:24] Yeah. And I feel like the lyric remains aware of the fraught moment we’re living in, but it chooses to inspire listeners past it and into a better place. I don’t write a lot of those kind of songs. So when they come up, I’m like, super psyched about it. Um, and, you know, there’s a lot of dark songs. I mean, I what I listen to, I don’t even know how many songs per semester that come in, and the happy and joyful ones really stick out because they really are outliers. So when they do show up, I feel like they provide sort of an avenue that is more towards curiosity, productivity, towards optimism, without being cheesy, without being cheesy. Yes, anyone can do that. So hopefully.
Mindy Peterson: [00:41:17] Yeah, well, and another good reason for selecting this song of your own is you own all the rights to it, so we can play a little bit of it.
Mike Errico: [00:41:24] That’s true.
Mindy Peterson: [00:41:25] So here is a little bit of “Shine.”
Transcribed by Sonix.ai