Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.
Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson, and this is Enhance Life with Music, where we explore the practical ways music transforms everyday life – health, happiness and beyond. When you hear the word creativity, you probably first think about artists, musicians, designers. But what happens when AI can generate art, music and ideas at speeds that we humans can’t match? And they can also write code and design. What’s left for humans? For the first time, business leaders, educators, and policymakers are asking the same question: What makes humans irreplaceable? There is a brand new book out there that answers this question and provides a roadmap for implementing the answer. The book is called “Creativity’s Edge: Unleashing Humanity’s Greatest Asset in the Age of AI.” Joining me today is the author, Susan Riley. Susan is an internationally recognized educator, author, and a leading voice in creativity and learning. A former music educator, she is founder of the Institute for Arts Integration and Steam. Her work has been featured by the US Department of Education, NPR, and Americans for the Arts, and her resources reach millions of educators every year. Congratulations on your new book and welcome to Enhance Life with Music, Susan.
Susan Riley: [00:01:30] Thank you so much, Mindy. It’s my just absolute pleasure to be here.
Mindy Peterson: [00:01:34] I am so thrilled to have you. I’m so excited to talk about your your book, Susan, you know this, but I’m just going to explain to listeners, I first discovered your work on LinkedIn and thought, ooh, this looks really interesting, this work on arts integration and steam. So I reached out to you about being a guest on this show and you said, yes, but I have this new book coming out. Could we talk about that too. And so I was kind of like, okay, you know, send it over. I’ll take a look at it. You did. And wow, I read the book and I was like, okay, STEAM and arts integration can wait. Although there is of course, overlap with your book too. But we just need to talk about this book because I absolutely loved it. I want to introduce my audience to it. It just released February 19th, so it’s available for listeners to get their hands on it starting out. Tell us who this book is for. You’ve done so much work with and for educators. Yeah, and this book is definitely a gold mine for educators. But it’s not just for educators. So tell us who is. Who’s it for?
Susan Riley: [00:02:38] Absolutely. So, you know, my entire career has been based in K-12 education, and I started out as a music teacher. So that’s I love your podcast and your people because you are my people, right? Yes. But the the thesis for the book actually started with the question if creativity is so important if this is the thing that’s going to set us apart. Why is it not more important in what we teach, in how we live in just everyday life? Right. And so the audience for this. Yeah, there’s a lot in here for educators. Um, that’s my natural audience. But there’s also pieces in here for, um, parents who want to cultivate creativity for their children and for just humans who are looking for an edge when it comes to the new reality. Um, there’s a lot in here. Every chapter has a reflective, creative exercise that you can use to both summarize and kind of think through the chapter yourself, but also that you can start to use as a creative habit or a practice to enhance your own creative skills and build those so that you become unstoppable in the workplace. So it’s really designed for anybody who’s looking to be more creative.
Mindy Peterson: [00:03:48] Yeah. And you do have quite a bit of targeted information for business leaders, for professionals, whether they’re leading a team or they just want to utilize this information in their own professional life. Policy makers. Creators, lifelong learners. You talked about parents. Any anyone who has littles in their life, whether they’re educators, parents, grandparents, caregivers. So yes, and like you said, anyone who wants that creative edge in this new world that we’re living in. So love that. Yeah, yeah.
Susan Riley: [00:04:18] I want to have people spark a conversation. Right? Like that’s that’s the whole point. I want us to start having a dialogue around this because it’s too important for us not to right at all levels. And so, um, my publisher kind of got a little frustrated. They were like, you should really tighten this a little bit in your audience. Do you really? I mean, um, and so, yeah, there’s a little bit more in there for educators, but it’s really for anybody who’s looking to to use that for their advantage moving forward.
Mindy Peterson: [00:04:43] Sure. Well and I feel your, your pain in trying to tighten it because I feel the same way with my podcast. It’s like music and the benefits of music apply to everybody, whether you consider yourself a musician or not? So it. I find it hard to tighten that down because it’s like it’s for anyone who wants to make their life better with music. So get that. Uh, and you mentioned some of the practical aspects of your book, too, and what’s included in some of the chapters. And that was something that really stood out to me is the wonderful blend that it was of science, going back to the research, but also very practical application case studies in real life, um, practical starter questions and tips and tactics and strategies. So it’s really a wonderful blend of all of those things.
Susan Riley: [00:05:28] Thank you. That’s my goal.
Mindy Peterson: [00:05:29] Yes, yes. Hit the ball out of the park with that. Um, so tell us, why does creativity matter more than ever? And how did it become the number one human skill in an AI age?
Susan Riley: [00:05:41] Yeah. So, you know, we’ve been talking about creativity for a long time, and I, I said I’ve been in education for at least 25 years at this point. And I don’t think there’s been a time since I stepped into a classroom where we haven’t been talking about creativity being the skill that we need to cultivate for 21st century learners. Right. But it’s kind of been this background noise like, oh yeah, we need creativity, but that’s a soft skill. That’s not something that you can necessarily train. It’s not something we need to invest in because we can just kind of add it to the background of what we’re doing in teaching. We can, you know, take a painting class if you need to up your skills and get creative in some way and want to enhance your your well-roundedness. Right. As a human, I don’t think anybody really took it seriously until until AI started. It’s like this open pathway and suddenly people are writing, they’re designing, they’re, you know, making music videos. I mean, sorry to just blew our minds in the last six months with, uh, the, the quality of video and you don’t know anymore, Even when you’re looking at something. Is that AI? Is it not? I mean, the the amount of rapid development that AI has done and the, the amount that it’s already started to replace various industries, various jobs, um, we know based on, you know, a lot of different research from the field that a significant amount of jobs are going to be replaced in the next five years alone.
Susan Riley: [00:07:15] And so I think suddenly people got really scared of, well, what does that what does that do for me as, as a human. Like what can I do that I can’t and vice versa? Yeah. And creativity is really the thing that sets it apart. It is the number one superpower that is going to allow humans to have that advantage that AI doesn’t have. And yes, AI can, right? But can it? Right. Like a human can it? Right. With a soul? No, it’s there’s it’s not there. It’s never going to be able to do that. And that’s because creativity and curiosity are interlinked in a really beautiful way for humans. Ai can only do as much as you can prompt it to do. You’ve got to ask it the right questions. You’ve got to frame it in the right way. I don’t know if you’ve ever been on a chat bot or on ChatGPT, but you’re asking a question and it doesn’t answer it quite the way you want. And you’re like spending 15 20 minutes. How can I ask this in the way that I want to get the response that I need? Right.
Mindy Peterson: [00:08:12] Yeah. What prompts will get me the results I need?
Susan Riley: [00:08:16] Yes. Right. Ai can only do what we are asking it to do. And in order for us for that to set us apart, you have to be creative enough to think critically, creatively, with curiosity. It’s all interconnected. And that is the the spirit, the I call it the fingerprint of each human that is different. It is the thing that it is your secret sauce. And so you have to cultivate that. It is no longer optional. I am dead serious. It is no longer optional if you do not cultivate your creativity, your skill set, the ability to ask good questions, get curious and be creative, you will be left behind. There is no doubt about it.
Mindy Peterson: [00:08:59] And I want to point out this isn’t just you saying this. This is according to the World Economic Forum. The jobs that AI can’t replace will be the ones that I think they kind of put them into two basic categories creativity and care based services.
Susan Riley: [00:09:13] Caregiving, caregiving, and creative and creative skills.
Mindy Peterson: [00:09:16] And then McKinsey and pretty much any Future of Work report is pinpointing creativity and sometimes some other thing. Like you said, the caregiving critical thinking, which complex problem solving that sort of in my mind falls under the umbrella of creativity. But those are the skills that everybody’s pointing to that AI cannot replicate, right? What does the research actually say about creativity as a competitive advantage? When we like I said, your book has so much research and science in it. Tell us what some of that research does say.
Susan Riley: [00:09:52] Well, I try to break that down in ways that people don’t glaze over. Right.
Mindy Peterson: [00:09:56] Totally successful in that. Yes, yes.
Susan Riley: [00:09:59] Because that’s the that’s the thing. That’s the key. Right. So research does tell us that creativity is the the hallmark number one of humans in and of themselves, the thing that does separate you from AI from and this is new research, clearly, because AI has has been around it’s been around since the 50s, right. Dartmouth.
Mindy Peterson: [00:10:20] It was.
Susan Riley: [00:10:20] So.
Mindy Peterson: [00:10:21] So intriguing that the the term was first coined in 1956. Yes. That kind of blew my mind at Dartmouth, which my son goes there. So shout out to Dartmouth. Yay! Yeah.
Susan Riley: [00:10:35] But this this idea of AI. What is it? How it’s kind of evolved has been around since the 50s. It just didn’t get into the general public vernacular until now.
Mindy Peterson: [00:10:46] So it’s been you like. I mean, when I was learning how to drive, we used physical paper maps. Now, you know, for for years now we’ve used MapQuest and now Google Maps and Apple Maps and, you know, all of that. So we haven’t necessarily referred to that as AI. But it is you know, there’s so many other aspects of AI that we have been using, whether it’s online shopping and finding algorithms for that or social media. We’re just not necessarily calling it that until more recently. And it’s it’s really hitting home now, like, oh, this is artificial intelligence and this is how it’s affecting me personally. We’re more aware of it.
Susan Riley: [00:11:26] Yeah. Well, and it’s it’s an evolving technology, right. It’s just like when you think of a computer in the 60s, they took up massive amounts of rooms. Right. For a computer. And now you have it on your phone. Right. So it’s an evolving technology just like anything else. And so while the research, um, there’s been research in AI for a while since then, but it’s not ever been, again, a massive amount until the last five years or so. And so because of that, it’s difficult to to say, you know, this is going to be replaced. This is not you have to work with future trending. You have to look at the evolution of everything else. And again, AI doesn’t live in a container. And so when we’re looking at the research you have to look at the research as a whole. But essentially you’re right in what um, what is everybody is kind of coming to the same conclusion based on the research that they’re looking at, the trends that they’re looking at, and the last 30 years, along with an upcoming 30, it’s very clear that where we are with AI right now will look very different in 18 months. Well, this is a rapidly evolving opportunity for the world, right? And at the same time, it is putting our aspect of humanity in very stark contrast. And we are starting to ask very important questions. I mean, the workplace itself is it is will look very different in the next five years. I have a daughter who’s going to college next year. She’s a senior in high school right now, and when she’s looking at the field of work and she’s asking her peers like, what are you going to major in? None of them know. I mean, they have an idea, oh, I’m going to be an English major. I’m going to do this. But all of them recognize they are all recognized. When we graduate, everything’s going to look different.
Mindy Peterson: [00:13:16] Mhm.
Susan Riley: [00:13:16] Sure. Um, so you know, so what’s interesting is that when you take a look at that, that means that the skills that they’re developing or that they want to develop have nothing necessarily to do with the careers that they plan to go into. So for example, I’ll give you another example. Um, one of my daughter’s best friends would like to go into neuroscience. Right. And you would think that she’s got to have a set of classes. Clearly. Biology. Um, a very heavy science based curriculum. Right. Yes. And for her, she values being able to think through a problem in a way that maybe others can’t. So she is actually taking planning on taking courses in creativity, in creative thought and thinking and being able to look at, um, lateral thinking. Specifically, she’s looking at how do I take a look at both different sides that perhaps that I’m not recognizing and looking at a problem in a different way, because the science is probably going to be outdated by the time I get into a hospital. Right. And do my residency. But teaching me how to think that’s going to be something that I can use no matter where and what it looks like. So being aware of that, I think, has been really interesting development for our students who are headed into higher ed. It’s something that higher ed is again facing a huge challenge, along with everything else that higher ed is facing right now. Um, how do you prepare students to to enter a world that will look different from the time they’re a freshman to the time they’re a senior? Sure. You know, um, so, yeah, there’s there’s a lot going on. It’s a really exciting, rapidly evolving field. Um.
Mindy Peterson: [00:14:54] And that’s great that these high school seniors are recognizing that things are going to look so different and that they’re thinking about things like that student that you referred to who’s looking at neuroscience, but also looking at creative thinking and things like that. So that’s great. They’re recognizing that. You mentioned earlier that we have been talking about creativity for a long time, but it’s been sort of more of a lip service type of a talking and discussion about creativity. And this next question I know we could spend forever on, but just kind of in a nutshell, answer this. And I think listeners probably know a little bit of the answer to this, but yeah, talk about how the value of creativity is being reflected or not reflected in our schools and workplaces. Is this value being placed on creativity when we look at what’s being taught?
Susan Riley: [00:15:46] And it depends on it depends on where you go. So, um, what’s really interesting? And what if you unfold all of the layers? If you were to ask an educator, what’s the thing that’s stopping creativity from, from being taught in your school? The first answer they’re going to give you is standardized testing. Without a doubt. Um, we’ve done polls on this multiple times. We’ve seen this in other research, and that is true. But that’s not really the answer. You have to peel it back even further. Standardized testing didn’t come into our schools until the 1960s, and that was done during the the first evolution of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act by Congress. Those tests were actually based on tests that were given during World War two to determine if somebody was capable of fighting on the lines, or if they needed to be placed somewhere else when they were drafted. So those tests were only loosely started to be used in the 60s. And the reason that they started to evolve was because of money. Where we were placing our money determines where we place our value. And at that point, our value was being able to read, write, use math, be successful in an industrial economy. Well, we also know that once you start getting money, you don’t really want to give that up. And so we’ve seen a lot of money being thrown at various kinds of programming curriculum companies, things that keep us in the status quo. And that is the real reason that we’re starting to see differences in pockets of who uses creativity and who doesn’t. Creativity actually thrives in constraints. So for schools that don’t have a lot. Sometimes you’ll see a massive explosion of creativity because they have no other option. Right. Like this is the thing that I love.
Mindy Peterson: [00:17:37] Yeah, I love how you talk about that in your book. I mean, it’s sort of counterintuitive, but I totally get it.
Susan Riley: [00:17:42] Yeah. Whereas other schools.
Mindy Peterson: [00:17:44] Poverty is the mother of invention. Isn’t that the same?
Susan Riley: [00:17:47] Absolutely. And we often think, oh, you need a lot of money in order to use creativity or have approaches like arts integration or Steam or Maker Labs or all the things. Right? No you don’t. Creativity doesn’t require objects, right? Creativity is a process. And so you can do that with a paper tube that you use from the recycled from your toilet paper. You know what I mean? That doesn’t matter. It doesn’t. The that money piece is actually that constraint actually allows for more creativity. That’s why you’ll often see private schools. Schools that have a ton of money don’t actually leverage creativity as much as they could, because their their outcome is still very much based in how do I get the student to college or to this particular career. And so creativity is possible and it thrives in some schools, it doesn’t in others, and really, it’s a matter of our priorities. And so this is a conversation that can easily be had by parents, school district administrators, teachers, the board of Ed members, and having a conversation around, if creativity is so important, we need to place the value in that. Now, what does that look like for us? Is that embedded across curriculum? Is that more arts classes? What does that look like for us?
Mindy Peterson: [00:19:00] Well, and talking about standardized testing too, there’s so much that you address in the book about you call it the measurement conundrum. Can we evaluate and measure and assess creativity in schools? And more importantly, should we? And you have a whole chapter on assessing creativity and how to do it, how not to do it? What ways stifle creativity actually which ways encourage it? So some really practical ideas, but also some philosophical approaches to that whole question of how do we measure it? How do we assess it? So loved, loved all of that information. And that’s another topic we could spend an entire podcast episode on. But I just want to make sure listeners know if they’re thinking, well, yeah, but how do you measure it? There’s lots in the book that addresses that question. You also talk quite a bit in the book about, are we stuck with whatever creative ability we’re born with, or can it be developed? And what would you say to someone who says they aren’t creative? I just heard a good friend say this in the last week. Well, I’m just not a creative person. What do you say to those people?
Susan Riley: [00:20:08] Uh, you’re inherently a creative person. If you’re breathing, if you are still breathing, you are creative. The problem is that everybody thinks of creativity as a skill based product, right? Like, I’m not an artist. I can’t draw because I can only do stick figures or I can’t sing in a bucket. Right? Those are skill based items and methods of or modes of transportation of your creativity, right? If you think of it that way, like as a musician, that’s my mode of being creative. It doesn’t mean that because I can’t draw anything else other than a stick figure, that I am not a creative person.
Mindy Peterson: [00:20:43] Well, back to our introduction where I said, when people hear the word creativity, they automatically think about musicians and artists or designers, something like that. But it’s not the extent of creativity.
Susan Riley: [00:20:55] No, it’s embedded within us. And there’s there’s a whole thing. In the book we talk about the four branches of creativity, and it’s more than just the skills. It’s also how you apply them. It’s how you cultivate creative thinking. And there’s lots of different ways to do that and creative expression. So just being able to express yourself, even if that is in listening to something and then being able to respond to what you heard, there’s creativity embedded within all of us. It’s our fingerprint. So literally you have it inside of you. It’s just a matter of finding the thing that that lights you up, that turns you on, and then chasing that as much as you can.
Mindy Peterson: [00:21:28] Well, I thought it was so interesting in your book that you talk about when your brain is lighting up with those creative aha moments. It doesn’t matter if it’s a creative moment in music, in the arts overall, or if it’s in solving a problem with your team or solving a parent like an aha moment with a parenting solution or an engineering issue. It doesn’t matter. The same parts of your brain are lighting up. Yes. So I thought that was really interesting.
Susan Riley: [00:21:56] Yes. Also, during that idea of lighting up in your brain, there’s so many interesting things that happen in your brain when you’re in the middle of creative, the creative process. Because typically our brains, each side kind of shuts down and shuts off depending on what we’re trying to to access, right? Like we have our default mode network. That’s our daydreaming system and our executive control network, which is where we have organization and decision making. And typically one is working while the other is quiet. But during a creative episode, when you’re working through something creatively that changes the network. Stop taking turns and they start playing together almost like a concert. So they start working together like an improv, like a jazz improv piece where what starts suddenly, what starts turning on in one side starts clicking in the other, and they respond to one another and they start to synchronize. When we take a look at MRIs, we can see that in the brain that these areas actually begin to synchronize, which is really rare. That’s one of the things that like when we start to take a look at the science of creativity and what is happening in that and how it leads to flow state and all of that good stuff, it literally we know this, right? It builds our health. It allows us to change our brains. You know, in this in the areas of neuroscience, when we’re looking at how our brains can stay healthy, this is certainly one of them. But it’s it’s more than that. Like it is the thing that makes you different. Your brain is going to synchronize differently than mine when wearing creative states. And that’s what I mean when I say that everybody has a creative fingerprint. It’s yours and yours alone. And so you have to learn how to follow that in order to, to bring your secret sauce. Right?
Mindy Peterson: [00:23:38] Yes. Well, and I love all the neuroscience that you walk readers through in your book. One of the aspects of that that I loved was where you talk about the three phases of creativity, and you talk about this interplay that you’re mentioning between the key neural networks. You talk about the one phase of creativity being divergent, and you call it the wild child, where it’s just like these wild ideas like, ooh, what if you know this or that? And then a second one is convergent where it’s like the practical problem solver. Yeah. And then the third one, lateral thinking, is like the rebellious genius who doesn’t just think outside the box, but it like questions like, why do we even need a box? What is the box? You know, and so I love that because I think, again, when people hear the word creativity, they might think, I’m not creative. I’m this practical problem solver. Well, that is creativity. And as you mentioned, we all have these three different phases of creativity, maybe to varying degrees, but they do all sort of synchronize and work together in concert when we have these creative aha moments. So it was so fascinating to read about some of that neuroscience in, in the book. Yeah. You, you just referred to also the art and the science of flow. You talk quite a bit about that. Tell tell listeners just a little bit about that neuroscience of flow and what’s happening in the human brain when we get into that flow state. And maybe just for listeners who aren’t familiar flows, just describe what what you mean by flow.
Susan Riley: [00:25:14] Yeah, flow is like when you lose track of time because you’re in the midst of something so powerful that you’re just you’re in it and suddenly you look up and you’ve lost three hours, right? You’re like, wait, what? And it felt like 15 minutes to you, right? That’s flow state.
Mindy Peterson: [00:25:30] And you’re in a zone.
Susan Riley: [00:25:31] Yeah, yeah. Getting in the zone. That’s flow state. And so when we’re in flow, that’s that’s when challenge of something and our skill set sync perfectly. It’s like they’re they’re peanut butter and jelly and they mesh at just the right time. That’s when our self consciousness kind of goes away and you become totally immersed in this. Right. So the benefits of flow when we’re in that state is that we begin to make these novel connections. And I guarantee you, your listeners have had this experience where you’ve been working on a problem, a challenge, something for days, and it’s been driving you nuts. And then suddenly you go take a shower and you’re like, forget it. I’m just going to forget about it for a bit. Or you go take a walk. And in 20 minutes, your brain has unraveled everything and suddenly, boom, you come up with the answer.
Mindy Peterson: [00:26:19] Yes, absolutely.
Susan Riley: [00:26:20] That’s that novel connection that’s working. Flow state enables us to get there faster. So when we’re doing that, we’re absorbing and retaining information more effectively. We’re learning faster. We’re literally learning faster. When we’re in flow state, it enhances motivation and it reduces our fear of failure. It allows us to cope with stress in a whole different way, like getting into flow is one of the best things that you can do. And the easiest way to get into it is to find your creative access point. That thing that you could get lost in for hours. It might be a Sudoku puzzle, I don’t know, but it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. Don’t put judgment on what it is. You find it, you follow it. It gets you in that flow state. The benefits to that are tremendous.
Mindy Peterson: [00:27:07] Well, and I love in the book how you talk about you can’t force flow, but you can create the environment, create the conditions that make it more likely to occur. So whether you’re an educator, whether you’re a professional, a parent, and many of us fall into multiple of these categories. You give really practical tips on how to create the conditions that make flow more likely to occur. So really love that. Talk to us about some of the other benefits of being in a flow state beyond what we might imagine. And I think you referred to this earlier. Um, one of them, I thought it was really interesting. In your book, you talk about one benefit is a release of BDNF brain derived neurotrophic factor. Am I saying that right? Talk to us about that.
Susan Riley: [00:28:00] So this is kind of like the creative cocktail that happens, right? Like you start with dopamine starts to take over and you start to see pattern recognition that comes from the dopamine. And that’s going to spur your, your motivation. And then you get norepinephrine that sharpens your focus. So you start to see these pieces happening at the same time. And then those endorphins keep you fully engaged. So you have this bliss cocktail going on that, um, you know, which is amazing, right? And you’re right. The. And it can last for hours. Sometimes the benefits from that can last for days. And so, I mean, if there’s no better drug to be on than being in a creative state, um, and it honestly, it literally has the same health benefits as going for a walk or having exercise or a lot of other things that we see that are beneficial for us. Get get yourself creative. It is a prescription for health, but outside of that, you’re right. The the environments that we create. Again, this is where getting curious is going to help you. Because when you notice, hey, I was just in that flow. I totally experienced that. Look around. What what was it like? How did you craft that environment? Was it quiet or did you have music on? Did you have a certain light or did you have candle? Did you have what did you set up for yourself to get you into that flow state so that you can optimize that for yourself? And you’re right. It’s never you’re never going to force it. But if you take notice of the things that work for you to get you in flow state, like for me, when I’m writing, if I turn, there’s a specific composer, David Lance, and he has a like I think the A set of albums, it’s called Cristofori’s Dream and he has this the whole album. If I play that, I will immediately go into flow and I know it interesting. So when I want to get some of.
Mindy Peterson: [00:29:55] His.
Susan Riley: [00:29:55] I know that about myself. Yes, but I know that about myself for whatever reason. That kind of it was like a key in my brain that if I turn that on while I’m writing, I you’ll lose me for.
Mindy Peterson: [00:30:07] A.
Susan Riley: [00:30:07] Couple of hours. And yes, yes. So just pay attention.
Mindy Peterson: [00:30:10] Sure.
Susan Riley: [00:30:11] Be curious. Pay attention. You’ll find it.
Mindy Peterson: [00:30:13] I love that that BDNF is called Miracle-Gro for the brain, and it is like a it’s true.
Susan Riley: [00:30:21] It does. I mean, like the the neuroscientists are they’re funny people, right? They come up with some great stuff, but it’s it’s all true. Like you, you will grow, you learn, you literally learn faster. That’s the that’s the miracle grow of it. That what would have taken, you know, hours, days to learn something you can learn in a very short period of time when you’re in that flow state.
Mindy Peterson: [00:30:43] And if I understood your book, right, that BDNF is actually a protein that helps neurons form new connections and it strengthens the connections that are already there. So this is actual real mechanical chemical changes that are happening, which is really fascinating. You mentioned dopamine. That’s kind of that reward system. And I just think about that. I taught piano lessons for years and I think about learning piano is hard and it can be very frustrating. That’s one of the benefits of taking it is it develops that frustration tolerance. But another side benefit of that is when you stick through and work through something and finally get your hands to do what your brain has been trying to get them to do, like play the right hand louder than the left hand or something like that. Then there is this dopamine response, this reward, like, wow. Yes, this was really hard. And I did it. Yes. It’s so satisfying. And even though it’s hard work, it makes you want to go back for more.
Susan Riley: [00:31:42] Yeah. Scientists actually have a term for that. They call it hard fun. Richard, I believe, coined that term hard fun. And I think of that a lot when I, especially when I’m teaching, is thinking about where’s the sweet spot where it’s hard fun, where it’s just challenging enough that when you get it, you get that release and you’re like, yes, let’s level up one more. Yeah, right. It’s constantly pushing you forward rather than frustrating you.
Mindy Peterson: [00:32:06] Yes. Yep. Love that. You mentioned in the book, too, that when we are in this flow state, We develop cognitive reserve, which is kind of like backup for our brains and any one of if of any age, especially the older we get, we want to be building more and more of that cognitive reserve. So, so many benefits to flow and creativity. And like you called it, creative episodes. I love that beyond just that, they feel good. But the more we experience those creative moments, the more likely we are to experience more of them. Uh, like you said, improved learning, increased motivation, the satisfaction that comes with the dopamine. So really love all that. Um, I know we’re running short on time here, which I knew we would. I could talk about this book for a long time. Uh, you talk in the book about the five pillars of creative practice and practice and really give some very practical, pragmatic strategies of how to develop creative practice. So really like that one term that I heard that I read in your book for the first time, and now I’m seeing it other places. Is Agentic AI is that is that how you say it? And that refers to agency? Okay.
Susan Riley: [00:33:23] Well, it’s, um, kind of like, uh, if you if you consider you had, like, a small army of agents that are working for you. Agentic AI so these are the when you’re thinking of, like, the customer care folks, or when you make your call to your credit card company and you get on the phone with somebody who maybe has a heavy accent or doesn’t that you don’t understand. And that’s clearly reading from a script. Agentic AI is replacing those jobs with AI tools and bots that when you call, they do not have an accent. It is they’re programmed in your region, so your dialect. So if I’m from the south and I call an agent to work with me on my credit card bill, I’m going to get somebody with a southern accent because that’s somebody that I could relate to. They can program these agentic eyes to be sound exactly like somebody down the street from you that connects with you.
Mindy Peterson: [00:34:15] That would be really helpful.
Susan Riley: [00:34:17] And then can actually answer your your questions. Yeah. So not just reading from a script, but that can actually pivot. Yes. So like when you’re like no I don’t I’ve said number two. Not number one please. Like, no, it’s it eliminates all of the, the frustrating components and it helps people get answers much faster.
Mindy Peterson: [00:34:37] Love it. Well, your book is very hopeful. I know a lot of people have had sort of a zombie apocalypse approach to AI. Like the world is ending and you quote Cornell Tech research team. They say the future of creativity isn’t about humans versus AI, but humans with AI. And I really love the hopeful and motivating and inspiring tone of your voice. There’s a quote that I want to read from your book. You say the rise of the creative machine isn’t the threat to human creativity that so many fear, but an invitation to redefine and reinvigorate it? It’s a call to explore new forms of creative partnership, and to push the boundaries of what we think is possible. And it’s a reminder that even in an age of artificial intelligence, the most powerful creative force in the universe remains the human imagination. So really love. Love that quote. Oh, well, yes. Anything else you want to tell listeners about the book before we close things out with a coda?
Susan Riley: [00:35:44] Yeah, I just just make sure if you’re going to pick up a copy, please share it. I just want to spark dialogue as much as we can. It’s so necessary. It’s been on the back shelf for so long. It’s time that this becomes forward. Because not for us. But I look at my daughter, my my nephews, my nieces, the kids that I work with. This is the future that they’re going to need to be prepared for. It’s up to all of us to be able to have the conversations needed for that.
Mindy Peterson: [00:36:10] Absolutely agree. Well, this has been so fun, Susan. As you know, I asked all my guests to close out our conversation with musical ending a coda by sharing a musical tool for listeners. Do you have a musical tool that you can share with us today?
Susan Riley: [00:36:25] I do. Mindy. So in the spirit of AI and creativity, there’s a tool called Beethoven AI. So it’s b to b e a t e ai. Um, it’s an AI music generator to create your original background music. So, um, if you want to create a story or a film or even just a little snippet that you put online, you know, to go with your background of a of a birthday party, you can create your original background music with the help of AI. It’s a really fun tool. It’s something that I like to play with, but it’s also kind of interesting to see, you know, the the mix and match that people can do and nothing is ever repeated. So it’s a great tool.
Mindy Peterson: [00:37:05] Oh, interesting. I’ll have to check that out.
Transcribed by Sonix.ai