Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.
Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson, and this is Enhance Life with Music, where we explore the practical ways music transforms everyday life – health, happiness, and beyond. As a piano teacher, I regularly have adults tell me, I so wish I could play the piano or fill in the blank with whatever music instrument their choices. And sometimes that’s followed by I took lessons as a kid, but I quit because I didn’t want to practice. And often that’s followed by I just wish my parents made me practice because I would love to be able to play. Now, just in the last six months, two people who are very close to me have confided that they have wanted for years to learn or relearn the piano, but they just can’t seem to find the time to make it happen. One of these conversations was very recent, and right after I scheduled today’s conversation. So I excitedly told this person about my upcoming interview with the author of a brand new time management book, and this person’s response was a frustrated, I feel like I am good at managing my time and she is.
Mindy Peterson: [00:01:10] This person is very disciplined, organized, ambitious. She runs her own business. She travels, has an active social life, and I know that she’s not the only one feeling this way. Like she is good at managing her time, and she still just doesn’t have time for something like playing a musical instrument that she knows will bring her so much joy. That’s why I’m so excited to introduce today’s guest and her brand new book that just released today called, “Big Time: A Simple Path to Time Abundance.” Author Laura Vanderkam is with me today. She’s someone whose work I’ve followed and admired for years. One of her earlier books, “168 Hours,” made a huge impact on me when I was a young mother and my kids were little and I was trying to juggle everything. Laura is the author of several time management and productivity books. Her work has appeared in publications including The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, and Fortune. She hosts multiple podcasts and blogs at LauraVanderkam.com. Congratulations on today’s book release and welcome to Enhance Life with Music, Laura.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:02:26] Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here.
Mindy Peterson: [00:02:28] I’m really looking forward to this conversation and it’s such a thrill to meet you in quotes, meet you virtually. Um, as we can see each other and chat on our audio and visual call. Well, Laura, as I mentioned, I’ve followed it in my your work for years, including your books and your podcasts. And I’ve always noticed that you are also a music lover. Yay! And you’ve always made time for music in your life, even though it’s not directly related to your vocation. And even though you work, you’re married. Your husband works, and the two of you have five children ranging from barely school age to college. So starting out, I’d love for you to just tell listeners what form your musical interests take. I know singing is part of it and why you’ve made space for this in your very busy life for years. Just explain what that consistent musical commitment has given to you, maybe musically, but also potentially emotionally. Spiritually.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:03:32] Yeah. Well, I sing in two choirs currently. Um, I have been part of a choir for most of my adult life. Years ago, I lived in New York City, and when I was first there, I was young and like freelancing for various places, which meant I wouldn’t leave the house basically. So, um, I wound up joining three choirs in order to meet people because like three nights a week, this would get me out of the house to go do stuff. Now, eventually I winnowed that down to just one choir when I got married and had kids and all that, you know? It was one night a week was sort of enough for for that period of life. Um, we moved to Pennsylvania back in 2011, and a couple years after moving here, I decided to join my church choir. So I sing in that on Thursday nights and go to rehearsals for that sing on Sunday mornings in church services. It’s been a lot of fun. You meet a lot of great people. Choir people are happy people. Uh, you know, we always love singing together, making beautiful music. And I love the challenge of having to learn new pieces every week because, you know, it’s going to be Sunday again and you can’t sing what you what you did last week, in addition to sort of, you know, choral repertoire for, for concerts. But then actually about a year and a half ago, I, as my kids are getting older and I feel like time is opening up a bit, I decided to join a choir that meets in downtown Philadelphia choral Arts, Philadelphia. And that’s been sort of a different experience because it’s more secular music in addition to some of the major, you know, religious choral masterworks. And it’s also, um, you know, very challenging. Like you only do a couple rehearsals before each concert and the singers are very, very good. So that’s been a bit of something of trying to match myself to their level, but I enjoy a challenge. Um, so I’ve been doing that for about a year and a half. So yeah, Mondays and Thursday nights are, are choir nights now.
Mindy Peterson: [00:05:21] So that second choir you mentioned may require some practicing on your own in between rehearsals.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:05:26] Oh yes. Oh yes. Well, they both do in case my. Oh, okay. My church choir director is listening to this. I want to assure him that I am also practicing for his choir. Um, but yes, I do. I carve out time usually at least twice a week when I’m leading up to concert cycles to run through the music beforehand. And I, you know, bang out my parts on the piano in my office because I have a piano in my office. As you do.
Mindy Peterson: [00:05:52] So you play the piano as well.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:05:53] As play the piano as well? Yeah. I learned to play the piano as a child, um, studied for about ten years and then just kept playing for fun for many years. It was an electronic keyboard with, you know, weighted keys. So it didn’t feel terrible. Yeah. But then a couple of years ago, I wound up with a piano and, uh, that that has been nice.
Mindy Peterson: [00:06:11] Wonderful. Well, you’ve also had some very interesting music listening projects that you’ve blogged about. You’ve talked about it in your books. Year long projects of listening to all of the works of Bach or the known works of Bach. Anyways, and I think this year you’re listening to all of Mozart. Is that right?
Laura Vanderkam: [00:06:31] That is correct. Yeah. So in 2024, I decided to listen to all the, as you said, known works of Bach. It’s a it’s a bit of an unclear how many works of Bach there are, but the ones where you can find recordings I have listened to. And then in 2025, I listened to all the works of Beethoven. And this year, 2026, I’m listening to all of Mozart’s catalogue.
Mindy Peterson: [00:06:52] Ah, so what’s motivated you to keep that active music engagement and commitment throughout all these years, even though, as I mentioned, it’s not directly related to your vocation, what do you get out of it?
Laura Vanderkam: [00:07:04] I just love it. Right? I mean, it’s so it is so fun to make music with other people and just to have something that is not work, that is not caring for family members, you know, something that is for me and is for fun. And I am always stressing in my time management books that people should find something like this. Now, it’s not going to be choir for everyone or playing in a musical ensemble or something like that, but something that is fun for you, that is not work and is not caring for family and ideally to make a commitment to it, you know, because lots of people are like, yeah, I want more time for my hobbies. I want more self care. I want to, you know, me time. But then they choose stuff like, that’s great. You know, reading. I want to read more, but that can happen anytime. Sure. And so it will get pushed aside when there’s something else going on in your life. Whereas if it’s a commitment, like I have to be at rehearsal at 7:00 on Thursday, 7:00 on Monday. Yeah. And so I don’t miss it unless there’s a good reason.
Mindy Peterson: [00:08:08] Well, and it gives you a good excuse to stop whatever you’re doing when you’re being asked by your child to give you a ride somewhere, or you’re being asked by your husband to help out with making dinner or, you know, whatever it is, they just know you have to leave at this time. So they’re probably not going to even ask.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:08:26] Yeah. No. Thursday is choir night. You know, and now Monday is choir night, too. And we’ve had to make some accommodations in family life to make that possible. But you know what? I kind of think it’s worth it.
Mindy Peterson: [00:08:36] Yeah. Absolutely. Well, there are so many people who do desire musical engagement, whether it’s for creative outlet, a hobby, a social outlet, creative expression. Even when and maybe especially when music is not their vocation. Like you said, it’s something that’s not work. It’s something that you’re doing just because of the joy that it brings to you. So if somebody’s listening today, like some of the conversations I alluded to earlier, if somebody is listening and says, music has always been a dream of mine, but I just can’t seem to find time for it, I keep postponing it. What would you say to them? And how can reading your new book, Big Time help them make this dream a reality?
Laura Vanderkam: [00:09:17] Well, I think there’s a couple things that can help you with making time for this. I mean, one is to hone in on what would make it appealing to you. And for many people, that is being part of a group. So, you know, a choir is good because they do, in fact, meet regularly. I mean, they have to, to rehearse. And so having something that happens at a specific time makes it rise up the hierarchy and, you know, the schedule priority that you have. But that said, I mean, if what you want to do is practice a musical instrument and just do that, like you don’t want to play in an ensemble or perform for anyone, then you need to figure out when would be an option for this. What is sort of the amount of time I think I can do and to make sure that that is realistic. Now, one of my favorite sort of time management rules is that three times a week is a habit. So I, you know, perhaps people had the beginnings of their musical career was with parents who were very strict about practicing. And they were having to do an hour, five times a week or something like that. That may not be realistic in a life where you are working full time, raising a family, something like that.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:10:26] But could you find three times a week for 20 minutes? Yes. Right. That is only one hour. There are 168 hours in a week. So we are just trying to find one hour of your 168 to make this happen. Now, if you are not sure where you could find 20 minutes three times a week, I would highly suggest tracking your time because often we will see that whole chunks of time disappear into nothingness, that we have no idea what we are doing with that time. And it is possible that you could repurpose some of that amorphous time into something that is important to you. Now, there may be some logistical challenges, like you probably can’t bang something out on a piano if you’ve got a baby who’s sleeping. It may be that you have small kids who are going to be on top of you if you try to practice, and so you need somebody else to be with them during that time. But, you know, the good news is they do grow up. And in many cases, if I’m playing the piano, my kids don’t want to come bother me because then I’m going to make them practice the piano.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:31] Love that. Well, I as a piano teacher, I can vouch for the fact that you can accomplish so much in 1520 minutes per day, 3 or 4 days a week. Like I, I really think that we underestimate what we can accomplish when we’re consistent with small chunks of time. And I for for myself, I am very disciplined. Friends have told me regimented Monday through Thursday and then the weekend is like my time to play. But Monday through Thursday I am very disciplined with my own piano practice with duo. I mean, think about Duolingo. You can spend sometimes five minutes a day on that and you can be making progress. So as a piano teacher, I just want to assure listeners that yes, small chunks of time do make a huge difference. So I totally agree with that. You do talk so much about tracking time in your book for and you, and you suggest that we have more agency over our time than we think. So for somebody who’s convinced that they don’t have time, what have you seen? Surprise people like this when they do track their time for a week or even just a few days?
Laura Vanderkam: [00:12:44] Well, one of the things that people are always interested to see is that there is discretionary time. Now, it may not be as much as we want. I totally buy that. But when people say I have no free time whatsoever, what they are generally saying is that I don’t have as much free time as I would like to have. Sure. And that is entirely true, but it doesn’t mean there is none. Right. And so it may be a question of figuring out where that discretionary time could be. You know, for many people, you mentioned being regimented Monday through Thursday. But for a lot of people, music practice might need to happen on the weekend. But it turns out Friday, Saturday and Sunday is still three times a week. Right. Like if you did it after work on Friday and then just found 20 minutes somewhere Saturday, somewhere Sunday, that would be three times a week right there. You don’t even try for Monday through Thursday. If Monday through Thursday is problematic in your life. Yeah. But what the biggest thing people find is that there are just chunks of time that they cannot account for. Right? Time keeps passing no matter what you are doing. And it is the rare person who knows exactly where all 168 hours of the week go. I mean, most people do not know there are 168 hours in the week. So that’s the first problem right there.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:13:49] Like we live our lives in weeks over and over again, weekly cycles of things. And yet we don’t even know that there are 168 hours in this chunk of time that we live repeatedly. So where that comes in is somebody’s like, well, I can’t do anything else. I work full time. Okay, keep track of your work hours, see how many hours you’re working. But let’s say it’s somewhere between 40 and 50, which, you know, would be a reasonable full time workweek, even if you are also like commuting ten hours or something over the course of the week. You know, we’re talking like 55 hours is devoted to that. Subtract that from 168 hours. We still have over 100 hours for other things. Yes, you’re sleeping, but if you add 56 hours a week for sleeping to 55 hours for work and commuting, that gets us to doing this math in my head 111 hours. If we subtract that from 168. We have like 57 hours for other things, right? So we still have a lot of time. We’re looking for one hour to play the piano. Yes. Right. We’re looking for one hour to pull your flute back out of that box that’s in the attic and play it. Or, you know, maybe it’s two hours to join a choir, but I still think you could probably find the time.
Mindy Peterson: [00:14:53] Sure. Well, you talked earlier. I think about the 20 minutes a day and how it adds up to 120 hours a year. And that is in your book, you talk about how that’s the equivalent of taking three weeks off work to devote to your goal. So those small chunks do add up. And when we track the time, we are able to see where those pockets of time may be, even if it’s in small increments of ten minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever that is. It does all add up. You talk in your book about effortful fun, which I find so intriguing, and I love this. So explain what? Effortful fun is and why it’s more satisfying than effortless fun.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:15:39] Yeah, so effortful fun is fun. That requires some effort, right? Like that makes a lot of sense. So it’s a leisure activity that requires either some planning or focus preparation, you know. But it could be something like reading. It could be a hobby, you know, something like doing puzzles, could be calling a friend. It could be music practice, right? That was something that would be effortful fun for a lot of people. It’s not, you know, it’s not required for your job. You want to do it, you would find it fun, but it requires a little bit more effort versus effortless fun is something like reading headlines online. Scrolling around on social media, um, perusing Netflix. Right? These are things that require no advanced planning or preparation, no focus, no intensity. They don’t involve other people. You can do them in any chunk of time. You know, it’s just it’s effortless. And the problem that comes up is that people tend to over invest in the effortless sorts of fun because they are effortless, whereas they would prefer to be doing the effortful sorts of fun. I mean, people say all the time like, oh, I wish I had time for my hobbies. I wish I had time to call my friends. I wish I had time for this. And then you look at your, you know, the screen time function on your phone.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:16:54] It says you’ve been online for like four hours a day and you’re like, no, I haven’t. But you have. It’s, it’s probably not lying. Um, but it just comes in these little chunks of time that are almost mindless and that you did first because you didn’t think about it. Yeah. So I would challenge people to try and do a little bit of effortful fun first before you do the effortless variety. So where this might play out with music practice, if you, for instance, have a keyboard and headphones. So not a piano here, but a keyboard and headphones, you could put those on and play for 20 minutes after you get your kids to bed at night before you go watch Netflix, right? Yeah. And then you’ve had both kinds of fun. You’ve had your piano and you’ve had your Netflix. Whereas if you start with the Netflix, you’re not going to stop like 35 minutes in and be like, I’m going to go play the piano now. Like that just is not going to happen. Sure. So you need to commit to doing the effortful fun first, and then the effortful fun will happen, and then you will be much more satisfied with your leisure time.
Mindy Peterson: [00:17:52] Yeah, I found that so insightful and so intriguing. Just the little level of satisfaction that comes when you’re, you’re doing the effortful fun. And I’ll point out that your book is so practical. You give so many real life examples of how people have implemented these concepts and principles in their life. And regarding the effortful fun, there’s a story about someone in your book where they were one of those people who just felt like she didn’t have time for fill in the blank. And after going through some of your training or Are interacting with your work. She ended up canceling her Netflix account, and in your book, you say she simply rewrote her story and spent her hours on what mattered to her, which resulted in her continuing to grow her career into bigger management roles, continuing to grow her family. She welcomed a third child into their family and even finding time to study the piano alongside her oldest child. Uh. So I love just the practical examples, real life examples that you give in the book, but then also practical strategies, tips, hacks, questions. If this is what you want to do, ask yourself this or if this is what you want to do, try this. I just want listeners to know it’s a very accessible book, very practical in that way. One thing that was also insightful and really intriguing to me is you point out that there’s this paradox where when you put big, worthwhile, effortful things into your schedule. It actually makes you feel like you have more time. So explain this paradoxical sense of time abundance that comes when you do schedule. Say something like music practice into your schedule. How does that make you feel like you have more time?
Laura Vanderkam: [00:19:45] Yeah, there’s actually a very fascinating study from a researcher who does look at time and happiness, finding that when people did do meaningful things with their time, they felt like they had more time than people who used that equivalent time to do nothing else. I mean, right. That had like this just time open in their schedule. And what it is, is that life is all about the stories we tell ourselves. And I simply cannot tell a story that I am starved for time when I am singing in two choirs. Right. Like I, you know, I’m making like literally five, six hours a week to go sing in my choirs. And there’s no way that I’m, like, starved for every minute. If I can do this now, you know, other people might find that a little ridiculous. And I recognize that I have, you know, I work for myself, I have some flexibility with my job and all that. But still, because I can see that point of evidence, I cannot tell myself a story of time scarcity. And I think a lot of other people may find the same thing too, that if you are finding an hour or two a week to play a musical instrument which brings you joy, you simply cannot be starved for time because you have time for playing the instrument.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:21:00] If you are, you know, playing in a string quartet one night a week, you cannot be starved for time, as evidenced by the fact that you have the time to play in this. Now, you know, some people like to cling to the story of having no time because, I don’t know, it may be fun to feel like a martyr. I, I, I’m not really sure what it is. And I know that this like, sometimes people tell themselves a story, well, I can’t do anything else because I, I have a family I want to see. Like, your family doesn’t care if you spend one hour a week doing something else, right? Like, sure. And you probably are. Anyway, my guess is a lot of the people are like, oh, I have to be, you know, universally available when my kids are around or whatever are on their phones on Instagram while their kids are watching a video somewhere to like, it’s just that it’s not a flag in the ground saying, I have claimed this time for leisure. Sure. Whereas getting on the piano and playing the piano is. But there’s no reason not to do that. I mean, it’s still leisure time. You may as well use it for something fun.
Mindy Peterson: [00:21:55] Well, and as a mother, I always felt like it was important, especially for my daughter, to model that being a good mother doesn’t mean giving up everything that you find important to yourself as a mother. Part of being a good mother is modeling, especially for our daughters, that we can have a life. We can love others and love our own life at the same time. And so I think it’s important to show that you have these hobbies. You make time for yourself. It’s a self-care type of a thing and really models for our kids what we want to model. So I think that’s really important. And what you said earlier about our emotional response is usually a response of the story we’re telling ourselves about things, whether it’s our job, whether it’s our family life, whether it’s our time. And this working worthwhile things into our schedule does really change our emotional relationship with time, which is something I really took away from your book and love, just like a new way of looking at like, oh yeah, wow, this doesn’t just change our skill level, but it changes our changes our emotional relationship with time. When we make time in our schedule for these things, we, we become the kind of person who has time to do worthwhile things, to do big things. Another thing that I really got out of your book was this concept of zooming out, and it really goes along with this title of big time. So often you talk in the book about how so often we get caught up in this 24 hour lens, and it’s like, I didn’t have time for that again today. I just don’t have any time. And instead of thinking through that 24 hour lunge, you talk about zooming out and looking at things through an annual lens of 8760 hours. So talk some more about that and how you might coach someone to think about music learning through that larger zoomed out lens instead of a 24 hour lens.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:24:03] Yeah, well, if 168 hours is slightly zoomed out for 24, like maybe you didn’t, you know, do your time for your music practice today, but you didn’t have to today. You just do it three times over the course of a week, over 168 hours. Taking an annual perspective. So looking at time through the lens of 8760 hours is just zooming out further and taking those same principles to an even higher level. So as an example of this, my choir that I sing with downtown here in Philadelphia, we tend to do a cycle of sort of 5 or 6 weeks for a concert, do a concert, take 2 or 3 weeks off, do another cycle of five, six weeks, do another concert. We’re off over the summer. My church choir is also off over the summer. I mean, you can come and sing on Sunday mornings for a sort of more informal thing, but I tend not to. Um, but you know, what that means is that while during the busiest weeks of my choral career here, I’m doing two rehearsals a week and, you know, singing on Sunday morning and all that. There are also about like 15, 16 weeks a year where I don’t do that at all. And I was adding up my time recently from the year 2024. That was the most recent that I’ve done this full on analysis for. And I spent, you know, a lot of hours on choral music in December because, you know, I was singing Christmas concerts.
Mindy Peterson: [00:25:22] There’s anyone who’s a musician doesn’t need an explanation of that.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:25:26] Choral Arts Philadelphia. I mean, so the B minor mass could take any amount of time you throw at it. Um, you know, so it was just a lot of time on choral music. In December, I spent basically zero time on choral music in July. Right. And so which is more typical, right. July and December both occur in a year, but it sort of balances each other out that there are more intense seasons. There are more relaxed seasons. When we look at the year as a whole, we can often see that there definitely is space for things. There is even space for very intense weeks because those tend to be counteracted by other weeks that look very different.
Mindy Peterson: [00:26:03] Sure. Well, something that goes along with this, that was another thing I really took out of this book was a perspective shift from. Instead of how can I be more productive? How can I squeeze more in? Kind of going back to that person’s comment that I had the conversation with where she said, I feel like I am productive. I feel like I do manage my time well, and she does. And so it’s like this perspective shift from instead of squeezing more in to number one, know where your time is going. And the tracking is hugely important in that. Number two, find where those pockets of time are, where you do have some control over discretionary time. And number three, have a plan on how you’re going to be intentional about using that for the good stuff. You call it like the things that you’ll be excited about. So instead of trying to squeeze more in, it’s more like prioritizing what’s going to light you up. What is going to make you look forward to getting out of bed in the morning, knowing that you have this to look forward to in your day. Anything else you want to say about that?
Laura Vanderkam: [00:27:11] Well, I would say also using the resources that are available to you. And one thing that happens with a lot of families that have young kids, there might be two parents, but they don’t consciously trade off who is with the kids, which would then allow for each of these parents to have their own interests outside of work and family. And so one of my favorite time management rules is to take one night for you trading off with somebody else in your life, if that’s what makes that happen. So for instance, you want to go sing in a choir on like Tuesday nights, and your spouse wants to go play in a pickleball league on Thursday. Well, great that your spouse covers Tuesday. You cover Thursday. Both of you are getting some one on one time with, you know, the kids, some single parenting time with the kids, but then you’re also getting some leisure time as as a trade off with that. The kids are still with a parent, right? They are, if that’s important to you for that. But each of you is also getting some real adult leisure time because you thought this through and made that trade off. So if people are like, well, I have kids, I can’t do that. That’s often the best way to both of you, you know, get some time. Yes, to do this. You know, I understand that all families look like that and not always, but maybe there are other adults in your life that you could swap with, whether it’s a, you know, another relative or a neighbor or a friend who also wants to get some solo time. And then you, you know, each take each other’s kids for an evening and cover for the other and get time to do that. Or you can kind of hire a sitter for two hours a week. That is going to be fine. Get some fresh blood in there playing with the kids while you go do do something else. It’ll be great.
Mindy Peterson: [00:28:48] Yeah. Love that. And I did that very thing trading off with a neighbor when my kids were young. We both had husbands who were working a lot of hours commuting, things like that. And for us, it was every Friday morning we switched off. One Friday morning, I would take her daughter and every other Friday she would take mine. So every other week we got an entire Friday morning to ourselves and even the week where I was watching her daughter, I found that I could really get a lot done during that time because my daughter had somebody to entertain her. You know, they would play together. So and this was when she was preschool toddler age. So yeah, it worked out really well. One other concept from your book that I want to make sure we address because I loved it so much is weekday evenings. You call these our golden hours. So talk about why evenings are such powerful and often underused spaces for meaningful engagement, like music or something else.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:29:47] Yeah. So the golden hours is the time after work and before bed on weekdays. And this is just what I’ve started calling them kind of, you know, based on like the idea of the golden years after you retire is when you have time for family and leisure. And it’s the same when we get our golden hours after every day at work. And this time is so hard to use. Well, because people are tired. They aren’t intentional about it, right? Like they just come home from work and they’re like, okay, well, you know, we just have to get through the stuff we have to get through and then we’ll go to bed. But it can be a lot of time. Like, from what I have seen on time logs, a lot of people are done with work or work related activities by 6 p.m. on your average workday. Some people work later, but a lot of people, the bulk of people are done with work and work related activities like commuting. By 6 p.m., they don’t go to bed until 1011. So we’re talking 4 to 5 hours of leisure and family time that is available to you. And yet many people can’t even say what they did with it afterwards. Now, obviously, there are things you have to do. If you have kids, you’ve got housework that needs to get done, but that tends not to need to consume every single minute of those five hours. So I’m always suggesting people come up with some golden hour intention, like what is something you could do for, you know, 20, 30 minutes in the evening that would be fun for you. And it’s something again, like reading or doing a puzzle. It could be instrument practice or practicing music, or it could be, you know, one night a week doing something like joining a choir. But having something that you intend to do at that time will make that time feel more memorable and more like it actually existed.
Mindy Peterson: [00:31:24] Yeah. One thing I’ll point out, too, that you say about this golden hour time frame in your book is you really encourage people to decide ahead of time so that they can manage their energy because other if you don’t have a plan, you haven’t decided ahead of time when you get home at 6 or 630 and then you’re trying to decide what to do, you’re you’re not going to do anything because you just don’t have the energy to make the decision, make the plan and carry it out. So I thought that was very insightful. It was so funny too. Also, when I was reading the section of the book, I thought like a light bulb went off in my head and I thought, that’s why I did what I did. When my kids were young. There was a Wednesday night or Wednesday program at our church that they could be in at our church it was they used a curriculum called Awana that people are probably familiar with. It’s been around for decades, but they offered it in the afternoon and in the evening. And at the time, I could have taken that with my work schedule. I could have taken them in the afternoon, and I chose to do the evening and afterward. When they were older, I was like, why? Somehow that came up and I thought, why did I do the evening? And when I read your book about the golden Hours, it hit me. I was like, that’s why I did it. Because unconsciously I recognize that in the evenings we just got nothing done. Like, I couldn’t get anything done because the kids were squirrely and wanting attention and things like that. And in the afternoon they were more focused on getting homework done, practicing piano, you know, whatever it was. And I just felt like if we have this scheduled in the evening, I can look at that evening and say, this is what we did, and we accomplished this. So it was kind of funny, like, oh, yes.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:33:06] Yeah. And but even if you’re at home for an evening, I mean, still having something other than, you know, screen time and homework and bed and baths and all that, just you want to feel like the evening existed and having some sort of intention for it is the best way to make that happen.
Mindy Peterson: [00:33:20] Sure, sure. Well, another thing that was sort of entertaining to me and made me chuckle as I was reading this book and just enjoying it so much, I thought back to the feeling I got when I was reading your 168 hours. When my kids were little, I was a young mother trying to juggle work and child rearing and trying to have some semblance of a social life and my own personal interests, and just feeling like I didn’t have time for it all. And then reading your book and you talk quite a bit in there about time tracking and at that time, and then again this time as I read your book, I just just reading the book had this soothing, calming, reassuring feeling where I thought, oh yes, I do have control over my time and I am making choices about how I’m spending my time, and if I feel like I’m out of control, I can track it and see exactly where things are going. So I’ll just. If listeners are feeling that out of control, crazy, like, ah, you know, I just don’t have time. You know, I can tell you, you’ll get a sense of equanimity and perspective and a sense of control and agency just by reading this book, whether or not you choose to track your time or not. I have had jobs in the past where I’ve had to track my time, and I never minded it at all. I had colleagues who really chafed at that, like, why do I have to justify my time? And I never minded it and kind of liked seeing where my time went. And I don’t really track my time now, partly because I know my perfectionist, Obsessive compulsive tendencies, and I know I could easily let that get out of control, and I have a pretty good sense of where my time goes. But if I ever start feeling like I don’t have time, all I have to do is read your books and it’s like, oh yeah, I have. I have a lot of control here.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:35:11] Yeah, that’s always my goal for people.
Mindy Peterson: [00:35:12] Yes. Well mission accomplished. There’s a quote that I just want to close with here before I have you close us out with our coda. This is a quote from your book. You say this book is about how to fall in love with your schedule. It is about how to arrange your days on this improbable planet. So you wake up knowing you have something to look forward to over days and weeks and years. Time, in all its bigness, can help you achieve things that would be impossible to do immediately. So I love that quote. Well, thanks so much for putting this gem of a book out in the world, Laura. I have links in the show notes, of course, so listeners can get their hands on that. As you know, I asked all my guests to close out our conversation with a musical ending, a coda, by sharing a musical tool that you wish more people knew about. This could be a book or a blog, an app, a therapeutic tool, or anything that enables you to enjoy your or enhance your life with music. Do you have a tool you can tell us about today?
Laura Vanderkam: [00:36:15] Absolutely. Well, we talked about my year long musical projects where I listened to all the works of a composer. So for Bach, I just, you know, did it myself going through the BWV catalogue. But then when I decided to do Beethoven in 2025, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that there is a website called Complete beethoven.com, which features, as you might gather, the complete works of Beethoven. Wow. Or close to it at least. And it was, um, I think the creator is Charles Petzold, and he created a 366 entries because he did it for a leap year. But a selection dividing Beethoven’s music into 366 bits with his favorite recording of each.
Mindy Peterson: [00:36:59] Oh.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:37:00] And so you can read a little commentary about, you know, what was going on in Beethoven’s life, what he was doing at the time, what they think, you know, it was written about and then a link to, you know, watch the or listen to the video of, of, you know, a performance of it. And it, it really helped make the project more doable and more satisfying because I just learned a little bit more about Beethoven and his life. And just that he was, he was a working composer. I mean, you know, he had to write stuff for his patrons. And sometimes that also meant writing easier piano music than he might have at early points in his career, because he was trying to sell the music. Right? Sure. So, you know, now you know.
Mindy Peterson: [00:37:39] Oh, interesting. Well, and that’s a great resource because it does the planning for you. So that cuts out a complete step of making something a project like this happen. Love that.
Laura Vanderkam: [00:37:50] Absolutely. Yeah.
Transcribed by Sonix.ai