Disclaimer: This is transcribed using AI. Expect (funny) errors.
Mindy Peterson: [00:00:00] I’m Mindy Peterson, and this is Enhance Life with Music, where we explore all the ways that music can make our lives better. Imagine not being able to hold your newborn baby. Instead, your tiny infant is in an incubator surrounded by monitors, alarms, tubes, and uncertainty. You feel helpless, wondering what you can possibly do to help. Now imagine discovering that you possess a powerful tool that can help your baby. It isn’t a medication, a machine, or a medical procedure. It’s your voice. Research is revealing that something as simple as singing to a premature infant can have astounding results. My guest today is Dr. Daisy Fancourt, one of the world’s leading researchers on this topic and on the connection between arts and health. We’re talking today about the remarkable science behind music’s impact on our most vulnerable newborns. We’ll also go beyond the science with a deeply human story of comfort, hope and connection. Because Dr. Fancourt understanding on this topic became profoundly personal when her own daughter, Daphne, spent time in the NICU unit after being born prematurely. We’ll explore what happens when a baby hears a parent’s voice, and why music may be one of the most powerful and underutilized tools in modern healthcare. Dr. Fancourt is professor of psychobiology and epidemiology at University College London, where she heads the Social Biobehavioral Research Group, and she’s director of the World Health Organization Collaborating Centre on Arts and Health. She’s a multi-award winning science communicator and one of the most highly cited scientists in the world. She was a recent guest on this show discussing her new book, Art cure, which I highly recommend, and she graciously agreed to come back to speak specifically about this topic that she touches on in her book. Welcome back to Enhance Life with Music, Daisy.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:02:15] Thank you so much. It’s really lovely to be back with you.
Mindy Peterson: [00:02:18] It’s so great to see you again. Starting out, let’s talk about what the research shows. Some people might assume that a newborn is too young to undeveloped or too fragile to respond to music. Can you give us an overview of what research is showing about music’s impact on babies in the NICU?
Daisy Fancourt: [00:02:39] There’s actually really interesting and growing research about the benefits that something as simple as singing to newborn babies when they’re in NICU can actually bring. One of the challenges that newborn babies face is that the NICU environment is so different to what they would have been hearing in the womb. I mean, you can think about the kinds of sounds that babies might hear in the womb there. They’re low, they’re deep, they’re regularly. And mother’s heartbeat, for example. Whereas when you’re in a NICU, it’s all high pitched, blaring alarms. It’s very unpredictable. And this can really raise anxiety levels in infants. It can make them much more stressed. It can mean that they’re not able to sleep as well, which has a huge impact on their brain development, on their immune function. Babies can also, if they’re moving around a lot, it can waste energy. They can actually be more likely to lose weight faster, which is one of those big issues in trying to maintain weight in premature infants. But actually, over the last 30 years, there have been more and more studies looking at singing, actually showing that when mothers sing to their babies in NICUs, the babies actually experience reductions in their heart rate. They experience improvements in their oxygen saturation in their blood, and they’re actually less likely to experience problems like apnea, like when a baby sort of temporarily stops breathing. And this all seems to be because the singing helps to relax this big stress response that they’re feeling. It can help to buffer those irregular noises that might have been causing them panic, and it can give them that really important human contact that actually can have all of these quite wide ranging benefits for them physiologically.
Mindy Peterson: [00:04:14] Wow. It’s so incredible. And just to clarify, the music that we’re talking about is that was the research done on mothers singing to babies, parents singing to babies? Was their recorded instrumental music? What kind of music has the was the research done with.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:04:29] It’s been a whole range. Some studies have literally put headphones onto babies. There are some hilarious photographs on the internet of babies in incubators, all wearing little headphones through to through to mothers either singing live or with recordings of them singing when they can’t be there, through to actually train music therapists, to actually be deliberately singing lullabies that are calm and slow with the babies. I mean, I think I think personally, I think the live singing is a really a really sort of strongest approach, because actually a couple of studies suggested that babies could tell if it was live or if it was recorded, I guess, because, you know, there’s that difference in presence in the room, isn’t there, which can be really important for a baby that would have been in the room in the womb, but is now completely in a kind of sterile incubator. But also it’s really important to the mothers, the parents as well. And I sort of I think most studies have looked at mothers, but I think we can conclusively say parents here because, I mean, any parent that’s been in that setting will know how phenomenally stressful for them this environment is. So I think we can think about this as a dual target intervention for babies and also for parents.
Mindy Peterson: [00:05:31] Yes, 100%. And I definitely want to come back to that because I think that’s really important. Before we leave the topic of the research, though, one of the most striking findings that you discuss were the feeding studies on babies that were exposed to their mothers singing. And this fits the category almost of like, the results are sound too good to be true. So babies, they had double the milk intake they had earlier oral feeding. They had shorter hospital stays. Talk a little bit more about what the studies found with the feeding patterns of babies exposed to music.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:06:10] There have been a whole range of studies looking at feeding because of course, feeding is stress related as well. If a baby is stressed and anxious, they’re not going to feed as well, which can really impact weight loss, which can be an initial early concern when babies are premature, as well as whether they actually manage to gain weight over their stay. There was a big study in the US that actually randomized babies to whether they were listening to lullabies or whether they were just having rest time. And as you say, they did actually find that the babies who had the lullaby exposure, they were having twice the amount of milk every minute that they were feeding. So in other words, they were feeding with a more focus and a stronger intensity. They were actually managing more feeds a day, and their overall milk take was much better, actually nearly double each day. So there have been studies showing that these effects can be really profound. And when you’re worrying about every gram of weight for a baby, this really adds up.
Mindy Peterson: [00:07:02] Definitely. Well, related to that, I know in your book you talk about the effect of music on the vagus nerve and how it has this relaxing effect on all parts of our body, including the pelvic nerve that carries signals to our gut and can help digest food. Do you think that’s playing into this, too, in terms of improved digestion by these babies?
Daisy Fancourt: [00:07:26] Increasingly, we’re seeing that arts engagement, listening to music, listening to singing really does have quite diverse sort of multisystem physiological effects on stress. So we can track it in things like heart rate and blood pressure, which are an indication of autonomic nervous system activity. So the messages that get sent through the nerves across our bodies and those same nerves that go into our heart and affect those cardiovascular measures. Also, those nerves go into our gut and to other organ systems, so we don’t yet have the data. Looking at how singing would be affecting the guts of premature babies. But there have been a couple of studies that have looked at adults and actually shown reductions in kind of gut related stress problems related to things like IBS, for example. So it’s certainly plausible that there are other organ systems where the stress relaxation response of singing might be impacting them, too. And we also see this in terms of hormone response. So we see reductions in stress hormones like cortisol. When people listen to music. And we’re actually increasingly seeing this amongst babies as well. So I think we can, we can consider this as a multi-system relaxation effect that singing can have.
Mindy Peterson: [00:08:34] Mhm. You mentioned in the book that music exposure appears to support communication between brain networks that are often underdeveloped in premature infants. It seems like that would have implications for the child’s longer term development. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Daisy Fancourt: [00:08:53] This is a really important question that actually we’re just starting to get more research on at the moment. So a couple of studies have said, well, if a baby has this kind of stimulation of singing when they’re in NICU, if they’ve got that, that feeling of communication with a parent, even if they’re not being touched or held in the way that a baby normally would at that stage, if they’re less stressed, does this actually mean that they would have different outcomes longer term? And actually, a couple of the very early studies on this have suggested there may be longer term effects. So, for example, one of them found that the babies who had exposure to singing in NICU actually had more mature sleep wake cycles whilst they were in the NICU. And another study actually found that there were differences, even a couple of years later, in some aspects of emotion processing amongst children who’ve been exposed to music in NICU. But I think these are early stage studies. So it’s very much an area that needs a lot more research. We need sort of large samples tracked over long periods of time. So I’d say it’s promising and hopefully much more on this coming down the line.
Mindy Peterson: [00:09:52] Well, I just think about the ripple effects of if that’s true and the music does impact long term development when it comes to sleep wake cycles, emotional processing that has such an impact on the whole rest of that child’s family. I mean, if they’re sleeping better, the parents are sleeping better, the other siblings are benefiting from that. And then any other environment that these children are in, whether it’s preschool, daycare, their caregivers are benefiting from that increased development. So, so many extenuating benefits from that.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:10:27] Absolutely. And I think there’s another issue here, which is that if you were to compare what it’s like for a baby in NICU now compared to 15 years ago, it’s actually very different for the babies because of smartphones, which is that 15, 20 years ago, parents would go in, they’d be with their baby all day. They might be there all night as well. They might talk or interact more with the baby, partly because there’s not much else to do. But actually working with clinicians, They’ve spoken a lot about the big shift. They’ve seen that now parents will sit by the incubator on their phones. A lot of the time, they might watch things with headphones in. They might be on social media, they might be reading the news, messaging people. And they’ve actually noticed there’s a big shift in how much parents are talking to or communicating with their infants. Now, that might not sound like a huge deal on the surface, but actually it is neurologically for these babies. If they’re not having that stimulation of that parent’s voice of that, that cognitive stimulation from that speaking, not to mention the kind of reduction in stress effects, then actually that that could well be impacting these very, very young plastic brains where actually every form of interaction normally would be helping to build those new neural pathways. So the loss of that may be having detrimental effects that we don’t fully understand yet.
Mindy Peterson: [00:11:38] Yeah, that is so insightful. I hadn’t thought of that. But yes, and also as you’re talking about that, I’m thinking the presence of smartphones in that NICU unit also bring even more high pitched noises and notifications and beeping and just the the random, unpredictable noise that babies are hearing. Even when we. I could see how it would be really easy to assume that these noises aren’t affecting babies because you’re not necessarily seeing it. You feel like they’re too undeveloped to really respond to that and be affected by it. But hearing is such an early developed sense in humans that I, I get how it would make a huge difference.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:12:18] Absolutely. And I think it’s important for us always to be thinking, what are, what are the things that are easily modifiable that we could be changing. And this it can be challenging for parents to know how they can communicate with a newborn baby. It’s very much a one way conversation, but actually saying there are other things you could be doing. You could be singing with them.
Mindy Peterson: [00:12:35] Yeah. That is it’s such low hanging fruit. It doesn’t cost anything. It’s just an awareness issue. And speaking of that, parents in the NICU unit do tend to feel really helpless. And you alluded earlier to the fact that this singing to babies and communicating with babies has a dual benefit, because it can give the sense of agency to parents who are feeling so helpless during this medical crisis. Tell us some more about this dual benefit and how the singing benefits both the baby and the parent.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:13:06] I guess anyone that’s listening who’s had a NICU baby will will know themselves how traumatic this can be. And I think particularly how helpless you can feel as a parent. As you mentioned, this is something that I unfortunately had some first hand experience of with my youngest daughter, Daphne, who was premature. And I think one of the things that I was so shocked at was how little I could do that there was basically nothing. And that’s so it’s so alien to feel that as a parent, because normally when you have a baby, you’re bombarded, you’ve got way too much to do. You’ve got to feed them, you’ve got to change them. You’ve got to look after them that day, your whole, your whole night and day when they’re so little. But that’s the profound opposite to actually what it’s like when you have a baby in NICU. There’s often very little at all that you can do, and yet everything is so out of your control and often moving so fast and such a scary way. And that can have really big effects on parents own mental health. And I think a big challenge is not only keeping the babies going through, but also the parents. These are parents who can be profoundly sleep deprived, enormously panicked and stressed about what’s going on. And I think anything that can support them in that time is also really important. And again, it comes back to feeding as well. You know, if your mother and you’re trying to pump milk in that environment and try and feed or whatever as well, then all these emotions are also going to make that harder, which will hurt your baby. So mother and baby very much are a tight knit unit in the NICU, even if they’re physically separated.
Mindy Peterson: [00:14:30] Ah. Well, and if a parent is able to regulate their own nervous system to some extent by this act of singing, and I’ll just refer listeners to to other episodes where we’ve talked about the benefits physically, physiologically, emotionally of singing on ourselves. I’ll link to those in the show notes. But if a parent is regulating their own nervous system, that I would think would have a significant effect on the baby, even if indirectly, like you mentioned, with pumping milk and things like that. Like I hadn’t thought about that. But yeah, that would totally make a huge difference. There’s kind of this symbiotic relationship when the parent is able to regulate their own nervous system that I would think would have an effect on the baby’s nervous system.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:15:12] Yes, absolutely. And I think this was something that I, I sort of became aware when I was in NICU with my daughter, she’d been because she was premature. She was an emergency caesarean section. I sort of you sort of forget about your own recovery in that process because everything is so on the baby. And I actually remember one of the midwives chasing me down in the NICU to take my blood pressure several days after Daphne was in there, and her telling me that my blood pressure was scarily high. And it was one of those things. Of course, part of me was thinking, I literally don’t care. That’s not the important thing right now. But she said, no, actually, this is important. You need to find a way that you can cope in this. If you’re going to provide the support you need for your baby. And actually, that was where singing, I think can be so beneficial because actually we know that for adults, if you sing, then the regular beat that you’re listening to that can help to reduce your own heart rate and blood pressure. It can actually help to lower the stress hormones, even reduce levels of inflammation, which are linked in with things like your mood as well as your stress. So actually singing, getting into that regular and calming beat and groove of singing is a mindful activity that can be hugely beneficial for, for adults own emotions. And I think recognizing that is really important for mothers, that this is an activity for both parents. More generally, I would say this is an activity that they can be doing with their babies. And I know my husband actually, he sang to our daughter. We both started singing to her a couple of days in, and he sang to her as well, and he was reporting back that he could really feel the benefits himself as to.
Mindy Peterson: [00:16:37] Wow, you had already spent a lot of time in years studying the effects of the arts on health before Daphne was born, and I can’t imagine how that would impact you. To see your research in action with your own child, you write in your book about singing to her. And even though she was unconscious, she couldn’t open her eyes. But you were seeing her vitals change on the monitors. Tell tell us a little bit about that and what it was like to experience real time in real life experience of what your your research had shown you over the years.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:17:18] It was a kind of horrifically surreal thing because I’d worked in NICUs, um, in a research capacity and working on clinical innovations programs earlier in my career. And I think it’s always an environment that I’d found a really scary one to behold, to be honest, because babies are so tiny. Parents are so helpless and you could just see in their eyes the love and the panic that were so prominent. So I think both times of my pregnancies, I was always sort of a bit really worried. I didn’t want to have a premature baby. So part of me literally couldn’t believe that we were in that situation by the time it got to it. I think the good thing for me is that I, I knew a little bit about what that environment is like. And so I was sort of aware that this this wasn’t going to be quick. This was going to be a long stay. And Daphne was she contracted meningitis when she was five days old. So we were very much in a very, a very touch and go context. And I think one of the things I found hardest, though, was not not knowing if she was going to survive, but not not knowing what I could possibly do to make her time any easier in that process.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:18:13] But I’d read these research papers and I’d read about the benefits this was having, and I was thinking, well, if I can literally just sing to her and that will help her to be less stressed, then whatever the outcome of this is, I can know that I’ve done something to make her time that little bit easier for her. And so being able to sing, I found it really comforting, actually, to see that as I was singing, she was responding. I could see that there were these little increases in her oxygen saturation. There were reductions in her heart rate. Her breathing was calmer when I was in the room singing to her, and even though I wasn’t allowed to touch her, I found that was such. It. For me, it was such a helpful thing to know that I was doing something that was supporting her, and also then to feel that I wasn’t helpless. But I had that role that I could play in her care.
Mindy Peterson: [00:18:53] Well, and I love how you point out that you weren’t able to touch her, but this was a vital point of human contact, even when touch is prohibited. So I found that so touching and so profound. You mentioned that she contracted meningitis. And in your book, you talk about how the infection control team agreed that if you dressed head to toe in protective gear, you could stand just inside the door singing. Tell us a little bit about that experience.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:19:25] Yeah, we had a couple of days where we weren’t allowed anywhere near her, even in her room, because there were so many layered infections going on, and she was considered such a risk to others as well from having meningitis. But I was so worried that she would just feel so isolated and alone that she might give up in that process, give up her fighting. But yes, I found it so helpful when we agreed that I could just stand inside the door because my voice then was that point of contact, even if I couldn’t touch her. My voice was that lifeline to her, and knowing that she knew I was there and that I could see that shift was really important. And so my husband and I tag teamed the whole time. We would take it in turns to stand just inside the door and to sing to her so that she knew there was someone with her all the time.
Mindy Peterson: [00:20:03] In your book, you say, I couldn’t be a mother in the traditional sense of caring for her, playing with her, or even holding her. But I had a role to play in her care.
Mindy Peterson: [00:20:15] Can you give us an update on how Daphne is doing right now?
Daisy Fancourt: [00:20:21] Daphne is wonderful. She is three and a half years old and she absolutely loves singing.
Mindy Peterson: [00:20:26] Oh, I love to hear that. I know a lot of these research studies are fairly recent. Is the results of these studies becoming more widely known and more utilized in the NICU unit?
Daisy Fancourt: [00:20:41] I still don’t think this is being applied as much as it should be. I mean, I think we definitely need more research. That’s always the case in science. There’s always new questions that emerge, but we’re also talking about something here that is basically no cost and no risks to anybody. And we can be very sure about some of the benefits from this, even if we’re still trying to figure out what the long term effects might be on the infants. So I think this is something that actually we could be implementing a lot more. Like when I was in NICU, I was aware, like we were given information packs about some of the things practically that we might need to know about whilst we were there. But none of that said anything about things like singing or about how to care for your own emotional well-being as a parent in that situation. And I think that that’s some really sort of low hanging fruit when we’re designing care for neonates and for hospitals to think about as well in the design of their care. How can we actually use this? I mean, I think we felt quite lucky in a way, because it was Christmas time. So the obvious thing to sing to her was Christmas carols and do a lot of Christmas carols. We could sing, but I even remember the initial panic of like, what do I sing? And actually feeling really relieved that there was a way that I could just cycle through lots and lots of songs without even having to think about it. And I think there are other ways we could do that with sort of resources like lullaby tapes or things that mothers and parents could be using to, to help remind them of what songs to sing. Because bizarre though it may sound, when you are so cognitively stressed as you are as a parent or NICU, even thinking of a song can feel like it’s too much effort. So I think any resources that we can do that can help parents in that way are really valuable.
Mindy Peterson: [00:22:16] Yeah. Well, as you mentioned, it’s low hanging fruit. It doesn’t cost anything. It’s free. It’s accessible to everybody. The benefit of that is pretty obvious. But the downside is of it is there aren’t any drug companies making money off it. So they’re not promoting it. So it’s kind of up to sort of a grassroots effort, I would think, to spread awareness of this benefit because you don’t have the big pharmaceuticals promoting it. I read somewhere that from the time of research being published to the time that it really trickles down into everyday practice and use and utilization, it’s often 17 years. Is that right?
Daisy Fancourt: [00:22:55] Yeah. The estimates change depending on what you’re looking at. But yeah, I mean, that number gets cited around a lot as being the pipeline timeline. I mean, it depends on what that exposure is. I think with this though, you’re right. It’s not it’s not a drug that’s going to get investment in that way. But there are already some wonderful nicus all around the world where they’ve got music therapists or they’ve got leads who can sort of support helping with music engagement. Actually, the NICU I was in didn’t have anything like that. So I think that highlights that there are these enormous amounts of variability in what a parent will experience when they go into NICU, and in terms of what emotional support is being provided to them and what kind of guidance on how to interact with their infants. But I think there are opportunities to think about guidance to hospitals generally around ways of promoting music as a way of supporting parents and babies. And I also think there are opportunities for for arts organizations here as well to consider how they can be developing guidelines or toolkits, or working in conjunction with healthcare partners to try and make sure that there are some simple schemes that parents could engage with in NICU.
Mindy Peterson: [00:23:58] Yeah. If a listener is hearing this and thinking, I work in a NICU unit, I wonder what I could. What’s the first step that I could do to help people be aware of this and implement it into where I work? Do you have any kind of first steps, low hanging fruit, for them to sort of increase awareness in their own sphere of influence?
Daisy Fancourt: [00:24:18] I think a great thing to do is to think, well, are there activities where you can latch this on? So for example, for many mothers in NICU, they’re being helped to express milk or to think about that. Is this something where when they’re being given advice on milk, at the same time, they could just be given a bit of advice about if you want to help engage with your baby whilst you’re here. Have you thought about some songs? It could be as simple as signposting mothers to a playlist that a hospital might put together. That might be some of the lullabies the mothers might enjoy singing. But just making sure that it’s put on the radar of of the parents really early on in their NICU experience so that it can behaviourally become part of the day, part of the way they interact with their babies. And also considering, are there resources in whichever country or state or whatever that already could be drawn upon, are there already some lullaby playlists? Are there some CDs? Are there expertise that could be brought in from arts therapists in other parts of the hospital that could be used to try and build that program up a little bit more?
Mindy Peterson: [00:25:12] Sure. Well, and as we’re having this entire conversation, one thing in the back of my mind is hopefully it goes without saying that parents do not need to be wonderful singers and have a wonderful singing voice in order to utilize this. Anything you want to say about that, about what babies are looking for in their parents voice?
Daisy Fancourt: [00:25:32] Yeah. I mean, babies are looking for their parent’s voice. That’s it. That’s actually the sound heart.
Mindy Peterson: [00:25:36] Stop.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:25:37] Exactly. That’s it. That’s what they recognize the most. And that was something I was really conscious of with Daphne. And that when I’d been pregnant with her, she’d heard my voice for the months that she’d been in utero. So not hearing it was going to be really strange for her. So I just thought, what’s the way she could keep hearing my voice, and there was no way I was lucid enough, or thinking clearly enough to be able to have a conversation or to talk to her about things. And I found that very hard in terms of I couldn’t I didn’t have any shared experiences to talk about with her, and I didn’t want to talk about her future. She might not have. So it didn’t feel appropriate to I didn’t know what to say, but actually just being able to, to not have to use words, but just to sing or even just to hum, it doesn’t matter. As long as she was getting my voice in some way. So I think it’s also important for people to know it doesn’t have to be a lullaby. It could be anything. It could literally, it could be any pop song. It doesn’t matter as long as it’s something where it’s your voice. And if the lyrics are too hard, just humming the melodies over and over again, that can also be something that is even cognitively even easier to do when you’re in that setting, but still provides that that vocal contact for a baby.
Mindy Peterson: [00:26:42] Mhm. That’s really interesting how you brought that up, that you don’t have to with singing the lyrics of a song. You don’t have to think about what to say. And that reminds me of we had an episode on how music impacts people with stuttering. And one reason most people who stutter can sing fluently without stuttering is because they don’t have to think about what they’re going to say. The lyrics are already there. They know what they are. And so that’s really interesting to think about in this context, where it just frees up a little bit of bandwidth. Like you don’t have to think about that extra thing. The lyrics are already there. You just, you just sing them or like you said, hum along, just hum the melody if you don’t know the words. Really insightful. If a parent is listening to this conversation from the NICU unit right now, hopefully we’ve already answered this question, but is there anything else that you want to say to them about something they could do right now to tap into music’s calming and healing capabilities. We’ve talked about just humming to their baby for their baby’s sake. Also for their own sake. But anything else that you want to say to that parent who might be listening right now in a NICU unit.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:27:50] Probably just to say that I’m with you and know that you’re not alone going through that experience.
Mindy Peterson: [00:27:55] Mhm. Beautiful. Well, this has been so insightful and so heartwarming to hear about your experience. And as I mentioned earlier, strongly recommend that people get their hands on your book. It’s just phenomenal. You talk quite a bit about this topic and your experience with Daphne, as well as many other ways that art impacts our health. Daisy, as you know, I ask all my guests to close out our conversation with a musical ending, a coda, by sharing a musical tool that you wish more people knew about. It could be a book or a blog, an app, a therapeutic tool, or anything that enables you to enhance your life with music. Do you have a tool that you can tell us about in closing today?
Daisy Fancourt: [00:28:38] I have a wonderful tool that I hope also might help parents if they’re in NICU, um, even when they’re not with their babies, with their own mental health. And it’s a principle called the ISO principle. And the idea is that if you want to use music to regulate your own emotions, start off with a song that really resonates with how you’re feeling right now. So that might be something that’s quite deep or dealing with challenging emotions. Use that to find that point of authentic emotional connection. But then each subsequent song that you listen to shift that emotion a little bit in the direction of where you want your own emotions to go. And it’s a really lovely relaxation exercise that can actually help just to bring about a meaningful shift in anxiety or in mood just through listening to a few songs. So I hope that that’s a nice thing that people can put into practice themselves.
Mindy Peterson: [00:29:22] What a wonderful idea. And that really does have physiological changes in terms of regulating our heartbeat and other aspects, which I’m sure we could have a whole nother topic about. But thank you so much. That’s wonderful.
Daisy Fancourt: [00:29:34] Thank you.
Transcribed by Sonix.ai